Shibata Kashima

Robstreperous
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Robstreperous » Mon Jul 31, 2017 6:43 pm

The Takeda bunka was also pretty good on sweet potatoes as I recall ..... but until now nothing I'd tried was in the class of my Anryu.

The Kashima did require more of a slicing motion than the Anryu but overall it is so very nice.

Maybe... just maybe... I've found a chink in the Kashima's armor. After 3 days of use on not the world's most forgiving board (epicuriean), maybe just maybe I'm seeing edge degradation in the front portion of my knife under 20X. Or maybe it's the original microchips I spotted earlier.

I think I'll take it to the stones to clean up the edge, establish a baseline, and see how she does. Nothing extreme. Maybe a touchup on a 5K. If that works then maybe we'll go a little crazy.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Chefspence » Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:39 am

Please tell me how it does through red cabbage. I've yet to find a laser that can do that well!!

Robstreperous
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Robstreperous » Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:09 am

OK. I don't do much cabbage. What's your personal technique? Push, slice, chop?

Have a picleback slaw recipe I've been meaning to try .

gastro gnome
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by gastro gnome » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:34 am

I have found that any dense cabbage head needs to be push cut until you have it quartered or in some other workable size.

From there, I might chop or guillotine & glide.

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Kit Craft
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Kit Craft » Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:36 am

Chefspence wrote:
Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:39 am
Please tell me how it does through red cabbage. I've yet to find a laser that can do that well!!
Interesting, I have trouble with red cabbage and workhorses. (Okay, only if I am cutting them in half. :lol: )

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Robstreperous » Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:51 pm

Never got to the cabbage this weekend. Will give it a try tomorrow.

My admiration for this knife continues to grow. Cheesesteaks tonight.

- Stacked peppers three deep Dropped right through.
- Even managed to slice crusty club rolls.
- Onions and mushrooms were a joy. There's stiction for sure but for some reason it doesn't bother me like it does on other blades. Not sure why.

Most impressively though *** This knife functions as a really nice sujihiki (double bevel of course). Needed to slice skrit steak thinly across the grain and it was way better than any carving knife I own. Might, possibly, be as good as my Takeda suji.

It's now officially become my desert island knife. If I could only have one and only one knife stuck on a desert island this would be the one.

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Kit Craft
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Kit Craft » Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:44 pm

Robstreperous wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 6:51 pm
Never got to the cabbage this weekend. Will give it a try tomorrow.

My admiration for this knife continues to grow. Cheesesteaks tonight.

- Stacked peppers three deep Dropped right through.
- Even managed to slice crusty club rolls.
- Onions and mushrooms were a joy. There's stiction for sure but for some reason it doesn't bother me like it does on other blades. Not sure why.

Most impressively though *** This knife functions as a really nice sujihiki (double bevel of course). Needed to slice skrit steak thinly across the grain and it was way better than any carving knife I own. Might, possibly, be as good as my Takeda suji.

It's now officially become my desert island knife. If I could only have one and only one knife stuck on a desert island this would be the one.
You really have me wanting to try one of these! While I know a 220 is coming out I typically like 180, 195 and under size 210mm gyuto knives. Rather I prefer something in the 185-200mm range and closer to the low end. :(

dv/dt
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by dv/dt » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:01 pm

Kit Craft wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:44 pm
You really have me wanting to try one of these! While I know a 220 is coming out I typically like 180, 195 and under size 210mm gyuto knives. Rather I prefer something in the 185-200mm range and closer to the low end. :(
Kit, have you tried the Minamoto Hamon 185? I don't have the gyuto, but I have the 150 petty and it's a great little knife for the money.

Not to derail the thread, I want a Kashima.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by salemj » Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:53 pm

So, Robstreperous, what other top-notch lasers have you tried in the past (I honestly can't remember)? So much of what you write above is what I've experienced with other very good lasers (and remember, Takedas don't count—they are thin, but they do NOT cut like lasers). I'm just curious, so no reason to feel defensive!
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Robstreperous » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:40 pm

Joe I'd buy a bandsaw if I thought it was what I'd enjoy cutting with. Laser, battle axe, what's in a a name? But if we're talking about lighter, thinner ground knives then I suppose ....

Kikuichi Tsuchime is my next closest comparison. That and of course the Shibata Kotetsu. Goko damascus. Arguably Kanehide. I know you say Takedas don't count but I feel they're fair game for comparison of cutting characteristics of thinner grinds. Especially when I throw in his taller profiles like his bunka. Haven't tried a Kono laser yet. Need to fix that one of these days.

To your point though yes the Kashima's a laser and probably a pretty good one but I'm not evaluating it that way. What matters to me is how's it stack up against alll the other knives I've ever used regardless of grind, weight or profile. What does it do better than or what the others don't?

And here's the thing. This knife seems to do just about everything I've thrown at it exceptionally well. Sweet potatoes, crusty bread, carving. I expected really great onion dices and pepper slices. But dense root veggies, crusty bread and carving (shaving's more like it) steak on top of it? Throw that in with what's turning out to be pretty impressive edge retention so far.... and at this price point? I'm sold.


I know you're not a fan of the Anryu but up until now that was my benchmark for sweet potatoes. For the Kashima to match and possibly outpeform it on sweet potatoes and then turn around and drop the way it did through stacked peppers? Unreal.

My only minor knock against it so far is the gradually swept flat spot at the heel. It's still taking some getting used to for me but I'll get there. Oh yeah.. that and I still haven't done much chopping with it.

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Kit Craft
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Kit Craft » Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:47 pm

dv/dt wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:01 pm
Kit Craft wrote:
Sun Aug 06, 2017 9:44 pm
You really have me wanting to try one of these! While I know a 220 is coming out I typically like 180, 195 and under size 210mm gyuto knives. Rather I prefer something in the 185-200mm range and closer to the low end. :(
Kit, have you tried the Minamoto Hamon 185? I don't have the gyuto, but I have the 150 petty and it's a great little knife for the money.

Not to derail the thread, I want a Kashima.
I have, it is not as laser like as I thought it would be but not a bad knife. For stainless, I like the way it feels on the stones as well. Rather, it feels okay on the stones.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by salemj » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:20 pm

The quips about a "name" are well advised—I didn't mean to get into the laser nomenclature argument (I've written on that before and have pretty specific feelings about what it means...and it has very little to do with specific makers or names). That said, I would definitely consider the Shibata Kotetsu a laser, even if I didn't consider any of the other knives you mention to be lasers (it isn't about being thin; it is about a number of things, including the feel through product). For example, my Takeda is very thin, but it does not really cut like a laser at all, nor have any of the Kanehide TKs that I have used—all were definitely thinner knives, but not laseresque at all, really.

In terms of how you are evaluating it: I totally get it. I didn't think you were evaluating it as a laser. I was just curious what you were comparing it to, mostly. I say I like "thinner knives," but what that really means is that I like a certain feeling through the cut combined with a spine that it thin enough that I always know exactly where the edge is relative to the spine. Many of the things you were describing just happened to match with what I look for in a knife, and most of my knives would be considered "lasers" by others...and I also have tended to adjust or adapt my knives to be more "laseresque" when possible.

I only tried one Anryu and they are handmade, so I have always tried to stay out of that battle...besides, the one I tried had a great heat treatment, so I totally get the advantages of the knife for those that like that kind of grind, etc. (I cannot say the same for the Takamura, which I have been more vocal about not really connecting with at all...). That said, I have never really understood why people like it for things like sweet potatoes, but I'm one of those people that feels as if a good monosteel laser is about the best thing for hard roots because of the ways I cut. I respect that others cut differently and that the Anryu probably works well for them, which is why I try never to argue against the recommendation so much as to recommend other alternatives. :) The point being that, well, it is not surprising at all to me that the Shibata would dethrone a Anryu in my hands, but I also know that it would not in someone else's hands who had a different technique.

Kit, have you sharpened any other R2? I feel like you don't usually list it and point out that you have one coming, so I think that maybe you have not. I have only dealt with two R2 knives, but I don't like the steel and I don't think it feels like "stainless" so much as it feels like R2. I would have definitely jumped on the Kashima wagon if it were not for the core steel (I have always liked the Shibata knives, but I do not like the profiles or the steels...the Kashima solves one of these problems, but I do not suspect he will switch from R2 any time soon). I'm sure I'd feel differently if I didn't already have a lot of knives that I love and admire, but as it is, I'm a home cook and there are too many other steels I'd rather have. If that means I miss out of clearly wonderful knives like Shibata's, I guess that's my pill to swallow. But I still admire them and want others to like them. Haha.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

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Kit Craft
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Kit Craft » Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:32 pm

salemj wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:20 pm
The quips about a "name" are well advised—I didn't mean to get into the laser nomenclature argument (I've written on that before and have pretty specific feelings about what it means...and it has very little to do with specific makers or names). That said, I would definitely consider the Shibata Kotetsu a laser, even if I didn't consider any of the other knives you mention to be lasers (it isn't about being thin; it is about a number of things, including the feel through product). For example, my Takeda is very thin, but it does not really cut like a laser at all, nor have any of the Kanehide TKs that I have used—all were definitely thinner knives, but not laseresque at all, really.

In terms of how you are evaluating it: I totally get it. I didn't think you were evaluating it as a laser. I was just curious what you were comparing it to, mostly. I say I like "thinner knives," but what that really means is that I like a certain feeling through the cut combined with a spine that it thin enough that I always know exactly where the edge is relative to the spine. Many of the things you were describing just happened to match with what I look for in a knife, and most of my knives would be considered "lasers" by others...and I also have tended to adjust or adapt my knives to be more "laseresque" when possible.

I only tried one Anryu and they are handmade, so I have always tried to stay out of that battle...besides, the one I tried had a great heat treatment, so I totally get the advantages of the knife for those that like that kind of grind, etc. (I cannot say the same for the Takamura, which I have been more vocal about not really connecting with at all...). That said, I have never really understood why people like it for things like sweet potatoes, but I'm one of those people that feels as if a good monosteel laser is about the best thing for hard roots because of the ways I cut. I respect that others cut differently and that the Anryu probably works well for them, which is why I try never to argue against the recommendation so much as to recommend other alternatives. :) The point being that, well, it is not surprising at all to me that the Shibata would dethrone a Anryu in my hands, but I also know that it would not in someone else's hands who had a different technique.

Kit, have you sharpened any other R2? I feel like you don't usually list it and point out that you have one coming, so I think that maybe you have not. I have only dealt with two R2 knives, but I don't like the steel and I don't think it feels like "stainless" so much as it feels like R2. I would have definitely jumped on the Kashima wagon if it were not for the core steel (I have always liked the Shibata knives, but I do not like the profiles or the steels...the Kashima solves one of these problems, but I do not suspect he will switch from R2 any time soon). I'm sure I'd feel differently if I didn't already have a lot of knives that I love and admire, but as it is, I'm a home cook and there are too many other steels I'd rather have. If that means I miss out of clearly wonderful knives like Shibata's, I guess that's my pill to swallow. But I still admire them and want others to like them. Haha.
I've not sharpened R2 at all, the Minamoto is 19c27.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Radar53 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:33 am

[/quote]

You really have me wanting to try one of these! While I know a 220 is coming out I typically like 180, 195 and under size 210mm gyuto knives. Rather I prefer something in the 185-200mm range and closer to the low end. :(
[/quote]

Hey Kit, have you thought about the Kotetsu bunka (its about 180mm) - its profile is more Nakiri-like than gyuto, but it a great knife and fits into your criteria above.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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Kit Craft
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Kit Craft » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:56 am

Radar53 wrote:
Fri Aug 11, 2017 12:33 am


"You really have me wanting to try one of these! While I know a 220 is coming out I typically like 180, 195 and under size 210mm gyuto knives. Rather I prefer something in the 185-200mm range and closer to the low end. :( "


Hey Kit, have you thought about the Kotetsu bunka (its about 180mm) - its profile is more Nakiri-like than gyuto, but it a great knife and fits into your criteria above.
Yeah, I have given it some thought. I ordered a Yahiko just to try out the steel. Looking further into things, I think If I like the steel I might pick up a Shiro Kamo 180mm Gyuto.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Radar53 » Fri Aug 11, 2017 6:04 pm

salemj wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:20 pm

Kit, have you sharpened any other R2? I feel like you don't usually list it and point out that you have one coming, so I think that maybe you have not. I have only dealt with two R2 knives, but I don't like the steel and I don't think it feels like "stainless" so much as it feels like R2. I would have definitely jumped on the Kashima wagon if it were not for the core steel ...
Hi Joe. I recently got the Shibata R2 Bunka referenced above and it was my first foray into both Shibata & R2, so I can't compare it to other makers versions of R2. However, I kept the factory edge on for a week or so and did some light work in comparison with some of my other knives. It was in really good shape & performed well, but I felt that there was more to be had, so sharpen it I did.

As per my post in another thread, I use 3M diamond films for my HAP40. I don’t know enough about R2 really, but being another PM steel I decided to use the diamond films on the bunka as well, by default. It was pretty straightforward to sharpen, maybe felt a bit more "mellow" than the HAP40. I did use a Shapton Glass 8k to set the micro-bevel though.

Pretty happy with the outcome, nice even main bevel at 10º and a small micro at 12º. Followed up by stropping on bare leather, 4mm bovine & really thin kangaroo. Angles might be a little bit aggressive with R2 @ HRC 62 - 63, so something I will keep an eye on. But its really sharp now - it will push cut telephone book paper all along the blade with just pretty much the weight of the knife, and its definitely improved through product, so no sharpening dramas at all from my perspective. HTH.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Robstreperous » Fri Aug 11, 2017 7:06 pm

salemj wrote:
Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:20 pm

Kit, have you sharpened any other R2? I feel like you don't usually list it and point out that you have one coming, so I think that maybe you have not. I have only dealt with two R2 knives, but I don't like the steel and I don't think it feels like "stainless" so much as it feels like R2. I would have definitely jumped on the Kashima wagon if it were not for the core steel (I have always liked the Shibata knives, but I do not like the profiles or the steels...
Timely post Joe. I'm about to tune the OOTB edge on my Kashima. Plan to take out some microchips, fool around with the refinement and whatnot tomorrow morning.

What is it exactly you didn't like while sharpening R2? What were you using to sharpen? I'll pay attention for it. Can't say I noticed anything really unusual when I did some work on a Shiro Kamo or a Kotetsu but neither of those two knives really needed very much work from me... one of the curses of how durable these edges seem to be. I've been working my Kashima pretty hard last 2 weeks and it still really doesn't need more than a strop --- other than the micorchips I feel probably came OOTB.

As far as profile.. I hear you... as a natural thing I like a little more height in the heel and some flat there as well.

That said? I'm adjusting to it. Doing more slicing and, oddly, find I'm inclined to chop with the front and middle of the blade.. and enjoying it. First time that's happened for me.

Please, if you can, let me know more about your sharpening experience tonight? I'll probably be up early east coast time working on my Kashima.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by salemj » Fri Aug 11, 2017 9:04 pm

I'll send you a PM.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by ChefKnivesToGo » Sat Aug 12, 2017 9:20 am

I want to encourage you guys to leave a short review of the knife on the item page. The first one was posted today and that leaves about 23 others that have not done one. For a new knife these short reviews on the item page are very helpful for customers that are considering the knife. There is a link right above the price if you don't know where the review link is: http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shckex24gy.html
Mark Richmond
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https://www.chefknivestogo.com

Robstreperous
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Re: Shibata Kashima

Post by Robstreperous » Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:11 pm

I had a really nice session with my Kashima on the stones today. The microchips came out easily using a Bamboo 5000. Then it polished up nicely on a Meara followed by a Yaginoshima. Prepped dinner with it tonight -- can't say I noticed any difference in performance vs the OOTB edge but it was so good to begin with.

The one thing I did notice was the knife "feels" a little better on the board. Someone else mentioned in a different thread they eitehr felt or thought they heard "curnching". I get that. For me it was a vague sense it was "scratchy". Kind of like sand on glass. That's completely gone now.

Back to shapening. Truthfully I expected a difficult to sharpen steel. It wasn't. I wasn't really trying to raise a burr but it came up pretty easily anyhow on the 5000. I also found the feedback pretty pleasant. It reminded me of the really nice VG10 treatment on my Kikuichi Warkomi Damascus. Nice feedback and I had an easy time figuring out where I was on the edge.

Going forward I'm gioing to play with it for a while and see how it holds up. No chipping... I'm going to take it up even further... will break out the Takeshima and the Nakayama Iromono.

I'm sure some people out there are cringing at the thought of PM on naturals but... gotta teil ya' it went really well today.

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