Hideriyama (Tomae)

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Kit Craft
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Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by Kit Craft »

The Tolerable Hideriyama:

Hideriyama is one of those stones that I have seen talked about on the forums for quite some time and one of differing opinions. I have heard this stone referred to as the worst Awase-do on the planet and an absolute waste of money. At the same time I have seen this stone receive amazing praise for its ability to bring out contrast and make a clean Kasumi finish and on a budget at that.

Before I get into which it is or even ask that question I must say that I have been reminded again and again that with Awase-do the variance is due to the volume of layers within a given strata. I don’t think that Naka-to stones work the same way which might be why I have found most stones, up to this point, to be more consistent that I had initially thought. I guess I just don’t know yet and I will figure that out along the way.

As always, please keep in mind that I am by no means an expert nor a pro sharpener. I do not and have not used hundreds of stones from the same mine or layer to make comparisons. The most I have got from a single mine and layer is six and that would be Ohira Tomae, which is fairly consistent but that will be saved for the future. My point is, please take what I have to say at face value, the opinion of a hobbyist.

Background:

So again, I am no expert and not even very studious but I know at least a little about the stone known as Hideriyama. It comes from a Mine in the northeast of Kyoto, much more northern than other famous mines. Said mine is known to typically produce softer stones than other mines. This stone has been said, by more than a few respected vendors/sharpeners, to be a “beginner stone” or at least that it is beginner friendly, which is a distinction that I think is more valid and very important.

Forenote:

This is my second Hideriyama, both Tomae and they were fairly consistent however this one is much cleaner than the last which is why it has stayed and the other has left.

Feedback:

Tactile feedback, for me, is arguably the best attribute of this stone. I think the contrast left by this stone leaves the feedback running for its money, though. It is close. Regardless, this stone is easy to use and feels good doing so. In cladding it has a very creamy feel to it, organic. Just a classic feel that I am sure most sharpeners will find familiar. The blade road just glides along the stone atop a pillow of creamy soft mud that is moderately thick.

For narrow bevels or sharpening the edge of the edge the feedback is silky smooth with a touch of grab and a dash of chalkiness. The physical feel when the stone when dry is very glassy, just like any other Awase-do I have felt but that does not translate in use. Your edge grabs the stone well enough that it does not slip around but there is not much resistance either. Maybe similar enough in feel to something like a Kitayama 8000.

Over angle will cause the edge to dig in and stop. It will gouge but not a huge amount, but I would try to avoid that if I were you. Under your angle and you will feel that creamy glide rather than that chalky feel, so again, you will know. It is not a hard stone to read.

Visual feedback on this one is very subtle. With cladding you get some light black staining on the stone but as the mud builds up it is lost in the shuffle. On the very edge of a narrow bevel the metal being removed is quite fine so it is hard to see as well. It does mix with the mud and that does not help matters. In this case it is hard to tell at what rate metal is being removed by sight.

Audible feedback is very faint to almost nonexistent. It does have that sound of wet chalk on the sidewalk but it is almost imperceptible. Again, similar to the faint sound you would get from an 8k plus synthetic. Nothing bad there. It is a fine stone and you don’t expect to hear it hogging off material from the knife or itself.

Management:

Mud management is easy enough on this one. If you are using a wide or single bevel and some pressure this stone will build up a medium amount of mud. It starts off thin and gets medium thick after a few minutes of use. It will dry out but does not turn chalky so adding water to the mix brings it right back to where it was. Also, unlike some stones the mud will not absorb back into the stone, it sits on the top and will dry there if you let it. This is good for someone who like a little mud but not a lot.

Water management is easy as well. It is more porous than Yaginoshima, for example but nothing else I own is. It is about on par with Oouchi and Takashima. If you let water sit atop the stone for a few minutes and do nothing, it will slowly dry out but in use it only needs a drop here and there.


Speed:

This is not a strong point for this stone. In fact it is slow. Rather, it is slower than any of my other natural stones to date however, it is also finer and removes less metal. That is to say, not only is it slower but it removes material in smaller particles or something like that, science is not my thing. However, what steel is floating around looks smaller to me. The point is that this is a fine stone and it acts like one.

What does that mean. Well, if you are wanting to make a big jump from say Natsuya directly to Hideriyama, don’t. It can do it but you are going to be wasting a lot of stone to get the finish that you want. I find this to be true for cladding and core steel. If you have remnants of burr left from a coarser stone it has a hard time removing them and that is particularly true on stainless, even simple stainless. You really need to do your part on the other stones before moving to this one as it is a final polisher not something that will cover up errors from the previous stone.

So, how fast does it cut compared to synthetics? Slow, period. I really don’t know as I do not own and have never tried a synthetic Japanese waterstone that cuts this slow. Slower than an 8k for sure.

Finesse:

This is a fine stone. It is finer than Oouchi and finer than Yaginoshima Asagi. By a lot, you ask? Well, no but yes. I would say Oouchi is closer to 6k in finish both cosmetic and edge quality and Yaginoshima is closer to 8k but not quite there. This one I would say is right at the 8k level for both, maybe a bit finer. It does leave more tooth than you would expect at this level, though.

So, the cosmetic finish on this stone is great. On core steel you get an almost mirror like edge with a little fog to it. On cladding you get a grey matte color with a bit of milky contrast and darker than anything I own so far. Not near as dark as something like a king 800 will leave and not as dark as some photos I have seen from other stones such as Uchigumori. This stone will not leave any scratches visible to the naked eye, rather my eye that is, as long as you do your part on the previous stone and do not make to big of a jump. If you missed a deep scratch, this stone will show that error and there is no question about that.

Edge quality? You see, I hear a lot of people say that Hideriyama leaves gouges in the edge, like it is biting out chunks of steel or it is as if there are inclusions leaving dull spots. I agree that these stones are not the cleanest and you can feel the larger silica dislodge or whatever it is but I have not found them to harm the edge. So I understand where it is coming from but don’t agree. Yes, the edge does have some bite to it and it is kind of odd but I don’t think it is a bad thing.

Explaining the bite might be hard. It has only a little bite to it but what bite it has is very aggressive. My best explanation is that it is similar to an edge you would get if you were to sharpen on a 1k and only strop on an 8k. Polished but toothy.

But in the end I would say this stone falls somewhere in the 6-8k range and maybe a little higher. Solid edges, for carbon, and a solid finish.

Hardness:

This time around I did not get a stone with an HS rating but on average these are around 34-38 if that means anything to you. On a Lv. scale I would say this one is between 2.5 and 3 and maybe closer to 3. Finally that makes it about a 6-7/10 in my experience.

Compared to naturals it is softer than some Naka-to such as Aizu but harder than most. As an Awase-do it is one of the softest that I own. It is softer than Oouchi and Takashima but not by much. It is a fair bit softer than Yaginoshima and my Ohira stones. Softish but I would love softer. It does have some elasticity to it, though, which is a good thing or at least I think. If you have not tried a natural stone do not be deceived by the term soft, compared to a soft synthetic these are still quite hard. It is nowhere near as soft as a Super stone, for example.

Dishing:

This stone will dish and needs flattened. It dishes slower than an Aoto but faster than a Yaginoshima. I guess what I mean to say is that you will, over a somewhat short period of time, be able to perceive the dishing. I don’t think my Yaginoshima has shown ANY signs of dishing. Use your best judgement on this one.

Value:

This was a fairly priced stone at $150. It is smallish, though, 210x55x22mm. That is still a low cost stone for an Awase-do. As this stone goes up in size its price will triple or quadruple! In general are these stones a good value, I would say they are.

Practicality:

Here is the hitch. Is this stone practical and for whom. If you like to do a lot of touch ups and you want to remove metal at a decent rate then I think this stone is not for you or at least not the stone for that purpose. If you want a stone that works for Kasumi finishes, it is absolutely a good stone for you. If you want to polish the edge following a coarser Awase-do, suita or a finer Naka-to then I think you will enjoy this stone as well.

So, the stone is practical as long as you are practical about choosing it over another. Is it needed for a double bevel knife, no really I don’t think it is but that is your call and not mine.

Also, I think this stone is not for someone who has little patience or sharpens a lot of stainless. Just something to keep in mind. It does work on stainless but not as well as some others.

Vanity:

It is a plain khaki colored stone with no character. I guess that gives it some appeal if you are a minimalist. Eye candy it is not, at least not for me. Not much to say here!

Bottom line:

Could I live without this stone, yep and I wouldn’t argue in contrary. Will I sell it, not likely for the time being. It is a fairly priced stone that leaves a good kasumi finish, is easy to use and has great tactile feedback. On the other hand it is not very fast and does not work the best on stainless core steel. I think those things balance out and that it makes the perfect stone for the right person. When I find a stone that gives as good or better contrast but feels better or is faster then this one might hit the for sale listings.

I think that it might be one of the better options for a Kasumi on a budget but it is not the only option. You can still find small(ish) takashima for a decent price and Oouchi is not bad for Kasumi either. Not as good but not bad. Of course there are finger stones and other options as well that are even more affordable. Regardless, I like this stone for this particular purpose.

For core steel, call Ken and order a Yaginoshima Asagi. Mine was about this same price but included a tomo. The same size but much thicker and it is an overall much more aggressive stone that I can appreciate much more than I did before I tried other Awase-do.

I think that about sums it up.
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by Kit Craft »

Freshly splashed and ready to go. You can see that after a few dozen uses this stone has very little wear to the Kanji. It will all disappear after a flattening, I think. The only time i have ever had Kanji stay after a light flattening was with my Yagi and even then it was almost gone. It was pretty flat when I got it, though.
Image

Here is what you get after a few passes on each side. That is mostly metal and not a lot of mud from the stone itself. Building mud with just the blade road does take awhile. While this stone does not need a tomo, it couldn't hurt to use one with narrow bevels. Also, you can see the stone is loading up a bit because I let it get too dry.

Image

This is more or less what you are going to end up with when finished. I did what I said not to, which is why I know you shouldn't do it, and jumped from Natsuya to Hideriyama so you might see a random scratch here and there. I later tried this again with Binsui beforehand and there were no errant scratches. I can do that yet again and take a photo if you like or with any other mid grit I have reviewed if anyone is curious. I have no issues showing jumps from other stones. :)

Image

This is the contrast you will be left with if you get a similar stone.

Image


Again, I know I am not the best photographer and I apologize for that. I hope the contrast picture does the stone justice. I know my photo in the Binsui thread did not, sadly.
Last edited by Kit Craft on Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by ken123 »

Excellent post! I think you capture it well. Yes the size of the stone significantly affects cost. I do get some of these in stock, but they are significantly larger.
HideriyamaTomaethird1a.jpg
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by Kit Craft »

ken123 wrote: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:52 pm Excellent post! I think you capture it well. Yes the size of the stone significantly affects cost. I do get some of these in stock, but they are significantly larger.

HideriyamaTomaethird1a.jpg

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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by nevrknow »

Thanks for a great heads up. Been eyeing this stone and I think it gets a pass for me.

Thanks for the great write-up tho!
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by Kit Craft »

nevrknow wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:15 am Thanks for a great heads up. Been eyeing this stone and I think it gets a pass for me.

Thanks for the great write-up tho!
No problem, my pleasure. If I may ask, what turns you off about the stone? Cutting speed, edge as described or finish? I can't do anything about the other two but as I said, if you would like I can precede this stone with another Naka-to and make a cleaner finish.

Lol, regardless of how that sounded, I am not trying to change your mind. I am just curious. I wish I had the will power to pass on more stones but I don't. :lol: I suppose that is why I buy smaller stones so I can get more of them.
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by nevrknow »

Probably cutting speed the most. Plus I think my other naturals can do the same or better. I can't justify a small increase in stone performance. I like jumps I can see. And more than likely I'm not not sophisticated enough to get into the smaller nuances of stones.

Having said all of that I really appreciate what you do. Your reviews have swayed me to buy other stones and you have not been wrong yet! :)
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by Kit Craft »

nevrknow wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 9:33 am Probably cutting speed the most. Plus I think my other naturals can do the same or better. I can't justify a small increase in stone performance. I like jumps I can see. And more than likely I'm not not sophisticated enough to get into the smaller nuances of stones.

Having said all of that I really appreciate what you do. Your reviews have swayed me to buy other stones and you have not been wrong yet! :)
Hah, okay. I feel you, though. Honestly, that is why I find it hard to beat my Aono. It leaves the edge that I want and about 85% of the finish that I want. I am looking forward to Monzen-to but I still need to give Ken a ring. Busy for the next week, though.

Thanks, I am glad they are helpful but just remember that these reviews are only based on my opinion and very limited knowledge. And I appreciate your commentary!
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by salemj »

Great review. I love the transparency of your impressions. Oddly enough, I imagine this is actually a stone that would be hard to part with. It seems to have a unique set of attributes...very unique...that make it useful for cosmetics even if it is not as useful or desired for edge work. Perhaps it is one of those stones that gets used rarely, but it very useful when needed.

I am particularly intrigued by the scratch descriptions. It does seem, based on your description, that this stone is not the best for edges. But the work behind the edge sounds ideal for some projects, and especially for newbies: the combination of good mud, slow removal, and the ability to cover-up a variety of scratch sizes all sound like an easy stone to work with to even out and polish up a wide bevel, even if you will then step down or up (or even "across") to finish the edge or bevel on another stone, or after using another stone to "shape" the bevel as necessary (i.e., for convexing or setting the "bump" in a single-bevel) to even things out and provide a more beautiful finish while avoiding harder, more refined high grit stones that may be slightly more difficult to work with on the tricky contours of single-bevels. I can imagine this is particularly true when you are working with a very hard carbon core that is covered by a very soft stainless jacket, for example, as this seems like a stone that you could work with to cut the carbon without overgrinding the stainless. But maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

I guess what I am saying is that the review makes this stone sound like an ugly duckling of sorts, but I have learned that often it is the unusual tool that fills the gaps best. I wonder if, over time, you'll find that this is a special "in-between" stone that actually works really well in conjunction with stones of a similar or close grit, just as a way of polishing out courser stones or while "priming" the blade cosmetically for other stones, if you will. Who knows! Haha. That said, it seems to have no place in my collection, since I don't collect stones and I currently don't deal with cosmetics or higher grits. But I can imagine how it WOULD have a place beside other stones of similar grit as a lateral move that primes bevels to allow unusual jumps, or that just works better for certain claddings, or even that allows you to just get a dark finish even when "finishing" with another high grit stone for the edge.
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Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Hideriyama (Tomae)

Post by Kit Craft »

salemj wrote: Fri Aug 04, 2017 10:29 am Great review. I love the transparency of your impressions. Oddly enough, I imagine this is actually a stone that would be hard to part with. It seems to have a unique set of attributes...very unique...that make it useful for cosmetics even if it is not as useful or desired for edge work. Perhaps it is one of those stones that gets used rarely, but it very useful when needed.

I am particularly intrigued by the scratch descriptions. It does seem, based on your description, that this stone is not the best for edges. But the work behind the edge sounds ideal for some projects, and especially for newbies: the combination of good mud, slow removal, and the ability to cover-up a variety of scratch sizes all sound like an easy stone to work with to even out and polish up a wide bevel, even if you will then step down or up (or even "across") to finish the edge or bevel on another stone, or after using another stone to "shape" the bevel as necessary (i.e., for convexing or setting the "bump" in a single-bevel) to even things out and provide a more beautiful finish while avoiding harder, more refined high grit stones that may be slightly more difficult to work with on the tricky contours of single-bevels. I can imagine this is particularly true when you are working with a very hard carbon core that is covered by a very soft stainless jacket, for example, as this seems like a stone that you could work with to cut the carbon without overgrinding the stainless. But maybe I'm just reading too much into it.

I guess what I am saying is that the review makes this stone sound like an ugly duckling of sorts, but I have learned that often it is the unusual tool that fills the gaps best. I wonder if, over time, you'll find that this is a special "in-between" stone that actually works really well in conjunction with stones of a similar or close grit, just as a way of polishing out courser stones or while "priming" the blade cosmetically for other stones, if you will. Who knows! Haha. That said, it seems to have no place in my collection, since I don't collect stones and I currently don't deal with cosmetics or higher grits. But I can imagine how it WOULD have a place beside other stones of similar grit as a lateral move that primes bevels to allow unusual jumps, or that just works better for certain claddings, or even that allows you to just get a dark finish even when "finishing" with another high grit stone for the edge.
As always, well put. I think that this stone, as you said, has its uses and that is side by side with other stones. However, I am under the impression that I can and will find another stone that will do just that while leaving the edges that I want. It will not be as affordable, though. As such I can see this as a good cosmetics stone for someone a bit more budget minded. At the same time, if you invest in this stone and a lateral stone just for the edge you may as well go all out and pay for that one stone that serves both purposes. Then again, maybe not.

I will still use it, I use all of my stones. I sharpen every day, or nearly, which drives my wife nuts! Always testing this stone with that stone. I though Tajima/Hideriyama would be a good combo but not so much. Binsui/Hideriyama seems to be my favorite for contrast. Amakusa/Hideriyama is better for feel but takes more time to get a good finish. Not that Tajima does not work with this stone but it is a harder and less muddy stone and my coarse stones are not so it tends to miss the scratches in what is left of the hollow on the blade road and Hideriyama will show that error!

Thank you for the commentary, it is always helpful. You seem to interpret what I say rather well even when I am not so clear about it!
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