KS initial impressions

[Cutuu]

Me no rock either Kit. Stab yes! I guess it is so long...oh shit...I don't know how...but I must have done it 3-4 times in the 5 minutes I used the damn thing

Sounds like good ground to get rid of ray.... @kit it totally makes sense if you were comparing it to 210 versions. I was comparing it to 240s, which is... Uh... Kind of more appropriate

. I have come to the realization that I like a 180 gyuto as a petty and a 240 as an actual gyuto but an not big on the standard 210 size for whatever reason. It took me a long time to get there though...lol.

I think you nailed it there kit or at least thats how i kind of am. I only own one 210 and its more for a line knive/slash prep. Its not like i dislike a 210. Its just im usually like uh let me get the 240 version.

[Kit Craft]

I think you nailed it there kit or at least thats how i kind of am. I only own one 210 and its more for a line knive/slash prep. Its not like i dislike a 210. Its just im usually like uh let me get the 240 version.

Like I said, I am stubborn and had it in my head that I didn't need a 240. While that holds true, I am liking the few that I have gotten used to. In fact, I rarely put down the KS. The KS is an anomaly though in that it gives me that same feel as a 180, in ways. It feels short at the heel and nimble for its size. I guess it is the proportion that I like. Heh, it keeps coming back to that one knife. I wonder how differently I might think now had I picked one up three years ago.

[dAviD]

I just picked up a used one from chefDpham that he made a handle for.

And it's the one I've been searching for use at work.
Some of the more expensive knives I ended up getting rid of because in a commercial kitchen a super nice expensive knife is more of a distraction and liability than it's worth.
While this has a delicate balance of lite and nimble it also feels like a tool and it doesn't need extra care to be babied.
(Outside of proper technique & good knives habits)

A delicate hammer in my toolbox so to speak.

I now have a small rotation of the knives I take to work. (cleaver, santoku or lesser knife and a chefs knife)
I have two kits built this way and I rotate depending on the workload or my feelings that day.
But each knife normally compliments each other in the kit.
(i.e. the Sugimoto #7 gets a Takeda santoku to balance it out)
Sometimes they all make it out of the bag....sometimes they don't.
If anything this works as my one knife option.
And like all newer knives I throw everything at it until I understand where it fits and where it strengths and weaknesses are.
A aside from not being a tall rocker....it's been a pleasure working with it.

I normally prefer cleavers and honestly I still do
(that's another whole obsession started in part by Fuchsia Dunlop and other Chinese cookbooks....)
So the rocking thing is not really a thing for me.
It handles herbs and mincing just fine though and that's the biggest one I rock on.

When I need a chefs knife the KS is the one that surprisingly fits the bill perfectly despite what i thought would be weaknesses:
Reactive, shorter than I like, longer in the tip, white#2, short rocking, etc.
It's like falling for a girl that you think is totally wrong for you....lol.

By all rights the Takedas and Konosuke knives I've had should have been more a fit, at least in my ideals list.
And they do, but it's is the intangible that makes this work for me.

But i tended to baby those and the fujiyama was a perfect work of art that would have killed me to mess up.

Also, I always read that edge retention isn't the best but I have had great results and I prep a f#&$ ton of product at work. A good deal of it's produce but even on meats it's been excellent.
I attribute some of that to just switching over to some natural stones I got from Ken but I could care less because at the end of the day.... whatever the combination is it's working for me.

I've bought, traded and sold allot of knives in the last few years only to arrive here.
Never thought I would get one because of the rareness of them and from the specs I didn't think I wanted a KS but....
I'm glad I tryed out a ton of different things.
It gave me a great baseline for truly appreciating this.
If I had gotten it as one of my first knives.....i might have totally misunderstood what it's all about.
Maybe not a great first knife but I could definitely see these being one of the last knives......
But then again like most of you guys I'm a knife nut and chances are that I'm going to get a dozen more toys to try and play with, I have at least two or three that I want to try next in addition to possibly picking up a backup KS down the road.

[Kit Craft]

David, that nails my thoughts too. Even though I am coming from a home environment, I tend to do a lot of prep for other people. Less so now due to a tragedy but lets stay on task. I find this knife as you say it, a tool. It feels right in use. It is nimble enough but does not feel weak or dainty and I do not feel like I have to baby. And as for the edge retention, I agree, it is nowhere near as bad as some others made it out to be. It has better retention than my Ginga but not as good as my Yuki. I would call that average for white #2.

I too think I might have missed what this knife as about had I picked it up from the start but I wonder. I guess I will never know.

Anyway, glad you are liking it! I just prepped a snack with mine. I had some leftover red bell pepper and half an onion so I made a frittata.

[Kalaeb]

Just sharpened mine up tonight, easy as one would expect with white steel. I am slightly surprised by edge retention no these, IMO, they certainly last longer than your average white and sharpen up just as easily. I did notice some micro chipping on the heel under magnification, but they came out easy enough. Anyone else getting micro chips, or am I just being too hard on it...

[Cutuu]

I got a tiny bit of micro chipping, very very small only barely noticeable under magnification. I used mine on poly boards and didn't baby it all. I also pushed it too far on tge edge retention to test it. I agree with concerning edge retention. Its not the type of edge retention that's poor enough to pease you off. Seems pretty decent for white steel. I haven't sharpened mine yet, but will soon, maybe tnight.

[Kit Craft]

I got some tiny micro chipping until I dropped down and did a full progression. I have not had the issue since. Had the same issue with my HD2 when I got it for whatever reason. Maybe due to having a machine finished edge?

[salemj]

I got some tiny micro chipping until I dropped down and did a full progression. I have not had the issue since. Had the same issue with my HD2 when I got it for whatever reason. Maybe due to having a machine finished edge?

This was discussed a lot on the old forum (you guys probably know that), but for the benefit of all readers, I'll repeat it. In general, it is believed that the grinding process (and, usually, the "finishing" process which, yes, is essentially machine-grinding the edge) produces enough heat and is also fast/aggressive enough that it distorts the heat treatment at the very, very edge. This makes sense for a number of reasons, not least because the very, very edge is so thin that it gets much, much hotter than the blade during this kind of work. I have never tried using a microscope to check, but my guess is that one could also see lots of microscopic weaknesses in such a edge right from the start. These very, very small weakness then lead to larger edge failures...which still usually amount to only tiny "micro" chips because we are talking about nuances here.

Regardless of the "science" or "cause," you can rest assured that lots and lots of members confirm exactly the same thing: a full progression (or even just a setting of new bevels) on certain knives usually resolves these weakness for good, even when - without such sharpening - the problem can persist for months when using only high-grit stones or stropping. Oddly, this seems to be true even for "hand finished" knives, such as some T-Fs, some Masakages, etc. This makes sense since even these knives may just be lightly finishes on stones but are still mostly ground/beveled/or at least polished using machine processes. I think there are too many variables to have a definitely cause-effect answer, but the general idea is not unlike burr formation: flipping a burr, aligning a burr, etc., etc., will make an edge feel sharp, but eventually it fails, breaks unevenly and causes problems; cleanly removing a burr stops all of these problems for good...I think a similar type of thing is happening here: getting to the "root" of the problem, as it were, actually causes the least damage, hassle, and metal removal, and trying to just touch up the edge actually can cause the problems to continue to make their way up the edge for some time.

[Kit Craft]

Great addition, Joe. I too think that is important to point out. It seems a common issue too. Most harder J-knives that I own exhibit this issue. Even those sharpened by Shibata and Takamura. I wonder if that is contributed to the majority of the work being done on a power tool (wheel/belt/buffer etc) and being lightly hand finished. Interesting thought but a topic we have discussed before, as you also noted.

Regardless, none of my knives seem to micro chip after a full progression. Sometimes that does mean increasing the angle a degree or two per side...Takamura. That knife had to of been 7-9 dps...

[dAviD]

New vs old grind:
Or.....
Obsession/observation/comparison

I got a new grind KS to compare it to the one I got with a custom handle and after about a week I have a pretty good idea of what the difference is between the two.

Now, I can't say I'm not biased because I love the handle that chefDpham did. Plus in intangible Mojo of having a rare and desired beast.....
but really, I sold off rare knives without batting an eye before so without any knife nerd snobbish bulls$t let's dig in.

Old grind= think whustof edge grind
New grind= think kono HD

The end.....lol.

Without a large sample group I can say at least between the two. The new one is awesome. It's edge profile is preforming as well as the old grind.

Edge retention seems the same, fit and finish are good. Funny enough I noticed a slight scuff or denting on the spine of my old one.....it's also there on the new so that I was me to believe it's a mark from whatever the are clamping it to when grinding.

food release is slightly better on the old just because of the grind but also I think once it gets more scuffs and sharpend a little more it's gonna be just about the same.

So:
In practice the slight difference in grind does make it seem to preform a little bit different. But even then it might be all in my head. And use will even out any of that.

The other big one is the kanji is allot deeper on the old one. It almost acts like a grip of sorts.
The new one has nice clean shallow kanji. Well done though.

I feel like any changes are not downgrades or quick fixes or whatever.....
but allot of it is slight improvements that any blacksmith who cares would make. (Cleaned up markers markings, smooth transition grinding.

The handle on the new is just a standard ho wood handle but a nicer example of what they could be. A few oil treatments removed and rougher feelings and removed the very slight step between the ho wood and buffalo horn. Chances are is still gonna get new shoes because with a slightly nicer, slimmer and heavier handle it would feel better in my hands.
chefDpham handle is a little slimmer so is got a little better board clearance on my right hand.
But that's the benefit of getting a upgraded handle.
The out of the box one is perfectly fine without much love.

All in all I'd say if you have an old grind, awesome!
It's a wonderful knife with a slightly different mojo than your newer ones.

If you have a new one, it's every bit as much a keeper if you jive with this style knife.
And anything that might be different really doesn't matter if you are planning on using the knife and not just collecting it.

I kinda like owning both if only because of having a backup knife ( it's a work tool after all)
And the history of them being a pain to get.....lol.

Plus I did love my Konosuke HDs.
And the new one somehow in a weird way has that kind of feel for me.... but with everything I like about the KS.

I need to get proper sayas for both do if anyone has an easy fix or suggestions please let me know!

Hopefully this post was helpful.

[Kit Craft]

The edge bevel looks HUGELY different on the two. Did the old one come that way or was it thinned behind the edge? Or is it a photo thing?

[dAviD]

The edge bevel is different. As far as I know/can tell it came like that.
At least came to me like that.
If it isn't stock like that, it should. Lol.

Honestly it's so cleanly done and prefect I just assumed it must be the norm.
The older one seems to be slightly beefier in general so it would be / or make sense to grind it like that.

Maybe some with another one that's sure could answer that because now it's gonna drive me nuts......

[Kit Craft]

Well I wondered because of another thread about the KS edge bevel. Mine came with tiny wee edge bevels almost identical to my HD2. So small you almost could not see them. But I have seen others, and I assume, older KSs that came with that huge wide bevel on the right face.

[dAviD]

Then that's correct.

[Robstreperous]

Hey. So I'm late to this thread. I've been testing out a loaned older KS from Jeff B. I'm as intrigued by this knife as any I've ever used.

In order my thoughts have been:

1. This thing's too short.
2. Wow it cuts nice.
3. This is one of the most excquisite tips I've ever used.
4. This thing's hard to rock with.
5. Man it cuts nice.
6. What a great tip.

I still haven't figured out where this knife fits within my collection. It's not quite a workhorse but it's not dainty. It's not a laser but it slices nice. The only tip I've used that comes close to its is a custom Tim Johnson did for me --- and he slaved over that tip. I have other knives this tall that don't make me wish they were taller. I don't know why that would be.

Once things settle for me a little bit I'm going to need to bake it off alongside the Kashima and Doi and Tsourkan which to a certain degree it inspired.

Perplexing. But in a good way.

[Cutuu]

Spealing of tge tip rob are you speaking of thinness or overall enjoyability of the tip. The kashima on mine is thinner and more precise, not necessarily better though.

[Kalaeb]

I have never heard of it being too short? Clocks in at 250mm..what size do you usually use Rob?

[Bensbites]

I have never heard of it being too short? Clocks in at 250mm..what size do you usually use Rob?

I was assuming sarcasm...

[salemj]

I have never heard of it being too short? Clocks in at 250mm..what size do you usually use Rob?

I was assuming sarcasm...

I was assuming heel height.

[Cutuu]

I have never heard of it being too short? Clocks in at 250mm..what size do you usually use Rob?

I was assuming sarcasm...

I was assuming heel height.

+1