Makoto santoku initial impressions

Lepus
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Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Lepus »

Bensbites wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:31 am Please add a comment on the heat treatment and edge retention when you can!
I wrote a reply to this but I didn't want to clutter up the new knife thread. The first post is included for context, in case anyone wants it.
Lepus wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:53 pm Image

This is a Makoto santoku.

The Makoto has been an interesting knife for me already, just two days in. I bought it knowing it was a Takefu made knife with a white #2 core and a stainless cladding. On first examination the most striking feature is the choil view; this thing is extremely thin. Held to a straight edge the Makoto shows a beautiful, consistent hollow grind on both sides, barely favoring the right side. I used it at work tonight and noticed the performance was strikingly similar to another Takefu made knife with a white #2 core and stainless cladding, one with a remarkably similar grind.



Take off the mask, the kurouchi and the handle, and what is underneath?

Image

The Makoto is at its core remarkably similar to a Masakage Yuki. The surface changes are the finish, the kanji, and the handle. The handle is in the same vein as the stock handles on the Kashima and Kitaoka, which are my favorite handle, so that's a tangible improvement. The Makoto handle's rosewood has more figuring and color variation than the other two. The kanji and finish unfortunately I don't like as much. I think this knife merits a chiseled kanji, or at least something stamped fairly deep. I'm not sure how the Makoto kanji was applied. In his video Steve mentioned it being embossed, but didn't go into detail. It looks and feels almost laminated on top of the finish. If it's sturdy, that's fine, but the kurouchi swallows up the kanji unless the knife is in the perfect light. And while the kurouchi seems fine as kurouchi goes the rest of the fit and finish is so clean I think this knife would benefit from a precise nashiji or other more refined finish. The spine and choil in particular are beautifully polished. I am already tempted to polish the face myself, but that runs the risk of obscuring the kanji, and I don't want to take the handle off to polish deep.

Compared to the Yuki the concave grind is more pronounced on the Makoto, running a little deeper and higher toward the spine. I look forward to comparing it to my Fujiyama. Along the section right above the edge it's thinner than the Yuki. I was scared it would wedge or split at the end of the grind, but I cut some Yukons tonight with no complaints, which surprised me a bit. The profile on the Makoto is also exactly what I was looking for in a small knife, so I'm definitely satisfied. My first impression is that the Makotos are excellent first knives, perhaps even just great knives in general. I'm glad I got one now because I can see his prices going up deservedly. I could see myself buying this same knife and maybe a 270mm again with a different finish.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Lepus »

I sharpened the Makoto at the start of my shift this afternoon. The bevel was clean and small, so I started on a Chosera 1000 and finished on the 3000. It took a little more work to hit the apex on the 1000 than I expected. I suspect I reprofiled it to a more acute angle, but the edge section is so thin it wasn't any trouble. As soon as I got to the apex it was off to the races. The edge formed a small, even burr, so I took that off with five or six edge leading strokes and went to the 3k with a light hand. It only took maybe a minute on the 3k to take one of the best edges I can put on a knife. Past my first stone I've been trying to follow Ken's advice about avoiding burrs, so I was careful to try to just kiss the apex. I didn't deburr again or microbevel in any way. I used it for a lot of product tonight and it had almost no edge degradation, so I'm confident it didn't form a wire edge. The knife wasn't transformed with a fresh edge, but it sure does handle tomatoes better.

The knife could definitely benefit from a more refined edge. I'm considering moving up to the Snow White or the Sanyo 6000. I don't know if I want that on what is by necessity a jack of all trades knife. Please, God, don't let me use this as an excuse to buy more stones.

Long story short, the Makoto sharpened as I expect good white #2 to sharpen. It does feel on the hard side for the steel, a lot like the Yuki. Kit has mentioned favoring Hiroshi Kato's white steel because it both sharpens beautifully and holds a wonderful edge well and I agree with that assessment. I'm looking for that out of this knife as well. It will be harder for me to judge retention because I don't forsee using this knife for everything the way I use a gyuto, but I'm going to give it the old college try. I'll write or reformat this into a proper review after a few weeks or months with the knife. It also has competition for my small knife spot in the form of the Gihei tall petty and the Munetoshi petty.
Last edited by Lepus on Thu Feb 08, 2018 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Bensbites »

Thank you.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Kit Craft »

Interesting, the site and SteveG's video says it is iron cladding, all three versions. You are showing as stainless. I wonder if there is a difference between the older and new models or if that is just a slip up on the site.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Lepus »

The site correctly notes that the higher end version with the satin cladding is stainless. The pattern welded cladding model is apparently fully reactive. Steve's videos are based on an initial miscommunication.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Kit Craft »

Lepus wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:29 am The site correctly notes that the higher end version with the satin cladding is stainless. The pattern welded cladding model is apparently fully reactive. Steve's videos are based on an initial miscommunication.
I guess you are right. I overlooked where it said stainless on the site and went directly to the video. Thank you.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by gladius »

They are both stainless.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Kit Craft »

gladius wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:38 am They are both stainless.
Good to know, I would have been disappointed. I am a patina kind of guy.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by gladius »

Many of us are. These are really good performing knives with a great feel and good balance. I have the 240 gyuto - the patterned one first and found it cut very well with a good heat treat. I now have the HG and might put it to the stones today but I suspect it will be identical steel.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Kit Craft »

gladius wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:55 am Many of us are. These are really good performing knives with a great feel and good balance. I have the 240 gyuto - the patterned one first and found it cut very well with a good heat treat. I now have the HG and might put it to the stones today but I suspect it will be identical steel.
I am sure it is a lovely knife and would like the performance. I don't mean to say I would be disappointed in that respect. Just that if I were expecting one thing and got another I would be. Then it would be my fault by watching the video and not reading the description too! Glad this was brought up.

Maybe it is obvious but I do not know what HG means.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by gladius »

Kit Craft wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:08 am Then it would be my fault by watching the video and not reading the description too!...Maybe it is obvious but I do not know what HG means.
------
Steve's term HG is high grade to describe the higher end version...in the video...you need not just watch the video but pay attention too :)

https://youtu.be/QJTnluJtEcI?t=18
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Kit Craft »

gladius wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:41 am
Kit Craft wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:08 am Then it would be my fault by watching the video and not reading the description too!...Maybe it is obvious but I do not know what HG means.
------
Steve's term HG is high grade to describe the higher end version...in the video...you need not just watch the video but pay attention too :)

https://youtu.be/QJTnluJtEcI?t=18
I have the attention span of a goldfish...
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Chefspence »

Kit Craft wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:38 am
Lepus wrote: Fri Feb 09, 2018 10:29 am The site correctly notes that the higher end version with the satin cladding is stainless. The pattern welded cladding model is apparently fully reactive. Steve's videos are based on an initial miscommunication.
I guess you are right. I overlooked where it said stainless on the site and went directly to the video. Thank you.
I missed that too
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Lepus »

I did too, until a few people pointed it out to me. That was why I bought it in the end.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by mauichef »

Great initial impressions mate. Even if they might cost me!
Thanks for moving the thread.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by MisoSatisfried »

Your ties to the Yuki actually make me really nervous. I've had one of these in my cart the past few weeks, but my 240 Yuki was the worst wedge monster I've ever had. It's the only knife I've sold with zero regrets. You've possibly saved me some money, which is always a good thing, ha. Thanks for posting this!

Additionally, his kanji are laser printed. He put up a video on his Instagram recently.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Lepus »

My Yuki is not wedge prone, nor has my Makoto seemed so, though I haven't cut any tall wedge prone ingredients with it. The Makoto's grind is a little taller and I would say more extreme than the Yuki's.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Kit Craft »

MisoSatisfried wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:27 pm Your ties to the Yuki actually make me really nervous. I've had one of these in my cart the past few weeks, but my 240 Yuki was the worst wedge monster I've ever had. It's the only knife I've sold with zero regrets. You've possibly saved me some money, which is always a good thing, ha. Thanks for posting this!

Additionally, his kanji are laser printed. He put up a video on his Instagram recently.
My Yuki is much thicker than those that others have as well. I have had better luck with the Kurosaki brothers than I have with Kato offerings though at least in terms of consistency across the same line.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by Jeff B »

Have a friend that has a Yuki gyuto and I didn't care for it when I tried it, ok just not that impessive. The Makoto HG gyuto he picked up would eat the Yuki's lunch. It impressed me enough that I bought one. Can't say how that would translate over to the Santokus.
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Re: Makoto santoku initial impressions

Post by MisoSatisfried »

Jeff B wrote: Sun Feb 11, 2018 6:02 pm Have a friend that has a Yuki gyuto and I didn't care for it when I tried it, ok just not that impessive. The Makoto HG gyuto he picked up would eat the Yuki's lunch. It impressed me enough that I bought one. Can't say how that would translate over to the Santokus.
Jeff, you're not helping man, ha. I had it crossed off the list thinking it performed like a Yuki, but now.... :lol:
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