Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

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Kit Craft
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Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by Kit Craft »

Suehiro Debado 3000

Background:

For notes about this series as a whole please see previous reviews and read anything listed as a note and or background.

Foreward:

On to the notes about this particular stone. I want to note that while not my favorite stone of the series, (that belongs to the 1k as tested but I bet I would prefer the 1500) this is my prefered stone between the 3k and the 6k. Now, you may not feel the same way and for a number of reasons but to figure that out you are just going to have to follow along with this review and the following. I will say ahead of time that this stone, like the others in the series, leaves a fine edge and offers phenomenal feedback. It really does follow the 1k very well.

Measurements: These stones were lightly used and then flattened by me so there will be a slight variance. Measurements rounded.

Stone only:

Length: 8 inches (203.2mm)
Width: 3 inches (76.2mm)
Thickness: 1 inch (25.4mm)
Weight: 31 ounces (884g)

Overall with base:

Length: 9 inches (228.6mm)
Width: 3.75 inches (95.25mm)
Thickness: 2.5 inches (63.5mm)
Weight: 25.5 ounces (724g)


Feedback:

As I have noted in the previous two reviews, the stones in this series offer great tactile feedback and a pleasant feel in use, this stone is no exception. The tactile response is immediate in that as soon as you find your angle the edge of the knife “clicks” into place as if biting the stone. While you sharpen you can feel the edge almost stick in place on the stone, which allows you to judge if you go over or under your angle because that feeling of the edge being stuck to the stone will disappear and you will know to make an adjustment. Pretty much par for the course for Suehiro.

Once again, as already mentioned, feel is often associated with feedback so I will go ahead and explain how this stone feels in use, to me. So, this one is what many would refer to as “creamy”, which is to say somewhere between feeling like dense and wet chalk and dense rubber. There is no grit or sandy feel of any kind nor any glass or slickness. It is grippy on the edge and creamy in use, if you will. I think this is a feeling that man, who are familiar with Japanese waterstones as a whole, will understand. A good feeling, better than good even. If feel and feedback are your thing, this is up there with the best of them, for me anyway.

Audible feedback is more faint on this stone. It whispers as you use it. You still get that “shu” or “swoosh” sound but ever so lightly. It is enough of a sound for you to know that material is being removed, be that metal or stone I know not but something is happening--hah. It is nice and relaxing, for what that is worth! I enjoy a stone with good audible feedback.

Visual feedback is immediate and maybe more so than the 1k even if only as an illusion. While this stone does produced some creamy brownish white mud it does not release it very quickly and particularly so on narrow bevels and as such you can see the metal swarf build up rapidly. Now, as the mud is light in color rather than red and grainy, it does not cover up the swarf either. The point is that you can easily tell how much metal is being removed in a single stroke.

Speaking of the swarf vs mud build up, the swarf left atop the stone looks like little puddles of gunpowder. You can see the individual metal grains, or at least that is how it looks. Rather it is not covered up or consumed by the mud and it is not inky looking like with some other stones. Well, cladding is more inky but core steel is not at all.

Also speaking of visuals, I will say that this stone does not load up at all so long as it is properly saturated. As it becoming apparent, it is much like the other stones in the series in this sense.

Management:

As I have said with other stones in this series, the water management is quite easy as these are soaking stones. Basically, you soak them and get them properly saturated and you do not have to worry too much about splashing water on them. To get to the proper saturation point you only need about 3-5 minutes in a tub on this stone or about 1-2 minutes under the tap. If you had used the stone the day before, well, maybe only a splash.

Drying, like with the other stones in the series, is suggested (by me) at a minimum of 72 hours. That is, assuming that you are going to store them in a closed space such as a cabinet or a box. I’d advise this to avoid issues of mildew or mold growth. If you store them in the open or soak them permanently (this is not a suggestion) that is a different story and entirely up to you. Me, I dry them out slowly on the bar before storing them on the bamboo rack beside my prep table. Well, for a few more days.

Mud management is quite easy but where adding water may come into play for you. This stone kicks up a medium amount of viscous mud fairly quickly on a wide bevel. That mud will not dry out fast but will thicken up a bit if you do not add a few drops of water here and there. You will want to ensure doing this so that your blade face does not stick to the stone via suction. This, for me, is a problem not related to this particular stone but simply how mud management works. Anyway, a good creamy mud that you should enjoy for a faux kasumi. None of this really applies to any appreciable level on a narrow bevel or micro bevel.

Speed:

This stone is fairly fast for what it is, I think. Not quite as fast as my Shapton pro 2k but it is a finer (finesse) stone so that makes sense. Using this 3k you can actually raise a bur on a thin edge in about 3 passes on 13c26 or white # 2 @ 61 HRC (my predominate testers). I am not saying that you should but you can. However, what that means to me is that this stone removes the 1k scratches quite quickly. In fact, you can erase any evidence of the 1k even having been used in just a few passes. No scratches and no 1k “tooth/bite”. This may or may not be a good thing depending on your taste.

Having said that, this is not a stone meant for repair or setting bevels. It, for me, is a touch-up stone first and foremost. Or a finishing stone, again, depending on your taste. And for that role I think the speed is right where it should be. Faster than a 4-5k and slower than a 2k (typically and based on the stones that I have used).

Finesse:

So, how fine is this stone? The 1k seems finer than many I have tried, does this follow in its footsteps? Well, I have not used loads of 3k stones or even 4k stones for that matter. I fair number of 5k and 6k stones, sure but it is what it is. I will group this with 3/4k stones that I have worked with and stones that act coarser or finer than their stated grit at 2k and 5k. Based on that I would say that the edge left falls closer to the 4k+ side of things than it does the 2-3k side of things. Again, for what that is worth. I’d say calling it a 3 or 4k stone would be pretty fair and most people would not notice or care one way or the other.

Now, let us put that in perspective. Without any stropping or any other tricks, the edge from off of this stone is quite clean. It will make the hair simply explode off your arms without making contact or tugging at your skin. Clean shaving. I still really wouldn’t want to take it to my face but you won’t get any ingrown hairs from this edge--heh. Still, there is more than enough bite for peppers and tomatoes. In face, I just used an edge off of this stone to dice up 6 vine tomatoes (fairly firm) for tonight’s dinner and I think it was a good match for the job, the edge vs the tomato that is. Paper towel push cuts almost like the 6k and newsprint is a joke. The point is that it is well refined while holding just enough bite, for my taste.

The cosmetic finish is still darker and has a nice fog to it on iron cladding and the core steel starts to get a bit more shiny at this stage but not too much. Good contrast and the cladding is nice and smooth to the touch. Me, I still like to push things further when it comes to the cladding though. As for the cosmetics on the wide bevel in general, we can get into that with the pictures I will post below.

Hardness:

Like the other stones in this series I would say this stone is medium soft to soft. This one is noticeable harder than the 1k, softer than the 6k and much, much softer than something like a shapton pro. And while it is on the softer and muddier side it is at this stage where highs and lows that you might have covered up with a much softer coarse stone will start to show themselves. In fact, they will stick out like a sore thumb. So, you are not going to hide any blatant highs and lows with this stone. If that is your goal, you will want something even softer and muddier or you can just flatten the blade road--hah.

You are not likely to gouge this stone even though it is on the softer side of things it is still on the finer end of things, which means it is not super soft. I mean you can gouge it but you really have to be screwing around to do so. No issue at all with using pressure on the leading stroke, if that is your thing. Oh, and while I did not mention in the feedback section I will say here that you will come to a screeching halt if you go too far over your angle. Maybe not a dead stop but almost.

Dishing:

Again, being a soft stone this will dish, just like the others in the series and faster than something like a shapton but it is at this point where things start to get better. After about 10 minutes on a wide bevel and 10 minutes on a narrow bevel I only needed to flatten for a little under 2 minutes and I was on my way. However, for the same amount of work on my SP2k it only takes a few seconds, say 25-30 to restore flatness. Again, this stone is much softer than that one. However, this is not a hindrance. I do suggest flattening after each session with this stone though but that is just the way I am. You could get away without doing it for a few sessions. Or, as always, you could move around the stone etc.

Value:

This is a tough one, it really is. I like this stone and quite a lot but at $90 there is a laundry list of stones that compete with it on the market. In fact, many of those stones are half the price. Some of which come from the same maker and are quite similar. Of course there are more expensive stones out there too but they are not very similar, which makes the comparison harder.

Now, comparisons aside and standing on its own two feet, is this stone worth the price tag? Simply put, yes. However, things are rarely so cut and dry in the world of waterstones. I would buy this stone, fwiw. But for many, given the choice, the rika 5k might seem the more logical choice.

Vanity:

This stone has a warm washed out canary yellow color to it. Simple but pleasing to the eyes.

Bottom line:

Like the other stones in this line, this is not a low cost option. It is high performance and offers some really, really great feedback (imo) but you pay for that in full. I think that is neither good nor bad, it just is. If you want a stone that cuts well, feels great in use, has wonderful feedback and gives a nice foggy cladding with fair contrast, this stone is worth the price. The awesome base adds to this. But you have to know what you want and that you are willing to pay for it.

This stone falls into a range that might match someone who likes and edge that is refined yet has bite. That is to say it is clean but not too refined. I think it is a good middle of the road option for narrow bevels. It works well on protein as well as veg. And as I mentioned above, it is a good touch-up stone. If you are looking for such qualities, you might have found your stone.

Likewise, I do find that I prefer this stone over the 6k for alloyed steel that, to me, seems to lose too much bite from a 6-8k stone. I also prefer it for midgrade to upper midgrade stainless. AUS8/10, AEB-L etc. I find this stone to work great for those as well. If you finish a lot of decent stainless, you might also like this stone.

If you don’t like soft, muddy, creamy stones then you won’t like this stone. If you are looking for something on a budget, well, this one might not be for you either. Or if you need something closer to a 2k or a 6k, again, this might not be your stone. This really does fall in the middle, so take that into consideration.

At the end of the day, I like it. However, you may not.

Note:

As I said in the other review, I not longer have any PM knives so I did not test R2 etc. This stone works fine with AUS8, VG-10, AEB-L, D2, 1075, 15n20, SK-4, White # 2, Blue #1-2 and whatever steel is used in the HD2.

Thanks again, Sean! Sorry I am a bit behind here, a lot going on but I’m back on track.


PS: Sorry but I seem to have lost the photo of the Zakuri blade road for the 3k! Not for the 320, 1000 or 6000 but for the 3000, yep. No idea what happened there. Sorry about that but I do have a picture of the Tojiro still, so you can still get an idea of what the finish is like.
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by Kit Craft »

Here you can see the swarf production from a single pass (10 strokes per side) on a narrow bevel gyuto (13c26 @ 61 hrc).

Image

Here you can see the mud production as well as the difference in swarf production between iron cladding and carbon core steel. The powdery looking bits are from the core and the ink looking stuff is the cladding, mixed with the mud of course.

Image

This will show the consistency of the mud. Not thick but not thin. (Part of this is simply decided on how much water that you as a sharpener use.)

Image

Unfortuneatly this does not show contrast as well as my other photo did, but I don't have the photo so I can't show it, sorry about that again! But it will show you the depth/darkness of the finish on the cladding as well as the scratch pattern.

Image

This shot might show some better contrast. Not good quality but it is something!

Image
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by old onion »

I really like this review.
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by Kit Craft »

old onion wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:00 am I really like this review.
Thank you for taking the time to read it and comment, Ray! Hope it was of some use to others as well. This back-to-back thing kind of took it out of me, just a little bit. I normally spend so much more time on stones one on one.
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by nakneker »

I’ve enjoyed all three of these reviews Kit, you do a good job explaining stones and knives. The 3k is my favorite of the four Debados I’ve tried. No load up, lots of feedback and it leaves a great edge. Your review said it all!

Now we just need to find another stone or knife so you can do it all over. I guess we should atleast wait until after the 6k review. That stone reminded of Cerax 6k but I like it better. Lots of feedback for a 6k. The fourstones, 320, 1k, 3k and the 6k make a good set, they work well together.

Again, nice job!!
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by old onion »

Kit Craft wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 8:38 pm
old onion wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:00 am I really like this review.
Thank you for taking the time to read it and comment, Ray! Hope it was of some use to others as well. This back-to-back thing kind of took it out of me, just a little bit. I normally spend so much more time on stones one on one.
You are welcome Kit. Your reviews on anything,knives or stones,etc. are in such great detail that it would be a shame for someone not to take notice and read.Your reviews are especially important for anyone who is new to our knife and stone world and wanting to be a part of it but lack the knowledge to take that plunge with any kind of certainty .
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by Kit Craft »

nakneker wrote: Wed Jul 11, 2018 10:32 pm I’ve enjoyed all three of these reviews Kit, you do a good job explaining stones and knives. The 3k is my favorite of the four Debados I’ve tried. No load up, lots of feedback and it leaves a great edge. Your review said it all!

Now we just need to find another stone or knife so you can do it all over. I guess we should atleast wait until after the 6k review. That stone reminded of Cerax 6k but I like it better. Lots of feedback for a 6k. The fourstones, 320, 1k, 3k and the 6k make a good set, they work well together.

Again, nice job!!
I'm starting the rough draft on the 6k tomorrow. :)
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by Cowboy Dan »

I'm starting the rough draft on the 6k tomorrow. :)
[/quote]

Looking forward to it! I’m curious about your hunch on the 1500 stone. As you know I’m new to freehand and I’m at a place in my journey where I’m asking myself “why would I use/benefit from X stone?” In my current progression I have the 400 and 800 choseras, which have given me more than adequate results on the knives I’ve been sharpening. None of which are laminated or have any cladding to my knowledge. My 800 has developed a nasty crack that just won’t seem to lap out so I assume I’ll need to replace it down the road. I figure in the mean time I could give the 1500 a go along with the 3k and higher depending on my needs. I understand it wouldn’t replace my 800.. Hypothetically, what role could it serve in my stone progression? Would the 1k be a safer option? I’m certain that I’d like to explore refining my edges a bit more so the 3k sounds like a good fit as I had already planned to purchase the naniwa 3k. I see myself going entirely suehiro (cerax,debado,rika) based on how low maintenance and less fussy they appear to be.
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by Kit Craft »

Any answer on the 1500 would be speculation but based on how this series and the chosera series both work I'd say it would fall more in line with the chosera 1k than the 800. For me, it would be too small a jump from that particular 800 to the 1500 but should follow the 400 just fine. Again, that is pure speculation based on other stones in the series and my typical use of basic carbon, my preferences etc. Having said that, the 1k is a good stone too. Kind of like the love child of a king and chosera--lol.

Anyway, I think that for me at least, the 1500 would serve as my mid to medium high grit. More of a 2k replacement than an 800-1k replacement. Touch ups or followups from a coarser stone such as a 320-600 (stones I often times use in place of a 1k as I am sometimes impatient). That is, based off of the fact that the 1k is already on the finer side of things.

Oh, and thanks for following along. I hope the 6k review will prove useful as well.
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by nakneker »

Kit Craft wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:21 am Kind of like the love child of a king and chosera--lol.

Made me laugh and accurate. 😂🤣😂
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Re: Suehiro Debado 3000 (NO. 4000 SNE)

Post by Kit Craft »

nakneker wrote: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:27 am
Kit Craft wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 12:21 am Kind of like the love child of a king and chosera--lol.

Made me laugh and accurate. 😂🤣😂
Hah, just the first thing that came to mind.
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