Kurosaki Fujin

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by jbart65 »

It's probably unfair of me to comment much since I didn't use the Fujin AS, but it didn't seem worldly different than Kuro's Kurouchi AS or the Richmond (later Kurosaki) laser. I just didn't feel any need to keep it.

Part of my reaction may have been result of handling the knife. The out of box edge was not especially crisp - at least by Takefu/Masakage standards - and it may have needed a fresh sharpening. The tip was thinner than the Kurouchi, but the overall grind was definitely in the Yu/Makoto wheelhouse. Quite thin till midway up the blade, when it thickened quickly in a sort of semi-convex manner.

I am sure it's an excellent knife and great performer, but I was originally looking for a great rendition of VG10 that also had killer looks. The R2 is the best cutter of all the Kuros I've used and my favorite is Richmond/Kurosaki Laser. If I could have any one Kuro it would be the laser. I regret selling mine.
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Edsonchen2 »

Got a kurosaki As 270mm sujihiki , super sharp out of box

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Edsonchen2 »

Very nice made Handles , Feel very solid on hand !

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Altadan »

jbart65 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:48 am
It's probably unfair of me to comment much since I didn't use the Fujin AS, but it didn't seem worldly different than Kuro's Kurouchi AS or the Richmond (later Kurosaki) laser. I just didn't feel any need to keep it.

Part of my reaction may have been result of handling the knife. The out of box edge was not especially crisp - at least by Takefu/Masakage standards - and it may have needed a fresh sharpening. The tip was thinner than the Kurouchi, but the overall grind was definitely in the Yu/Makoto wheelhouse. Quite thin till midway up the blade, when it thickened quickly in a sort of semi-convex manner.

I am sure it's an excellent knife and great performer, but I was originally looking for a great rendition of VG10 that also had killer looks. The R2 is the best cutter of all the Kuros I've used and my favorite is Richmond/Kurosaki Laser. If I could have any one Kuro it would be the laser. I regret selling mine.
So, what's the word on you Fujin VG10's performance?
How's the rendition of the steel?
And, something I've been curious about, how is the food release on that grind and finish?

Thanks!
the curious cat
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

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And they're gone...

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by salemj »

Jeff B wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 11:32 pm
Barashka wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:36 pm
- why take AS only to hrc that blue1/white1 can handle?
You would have to ask Yu but my "assumption" would be that AS can be tougher at that hrc and still have better edge retention compared to white and blue at the same hrc. And if nothing else, in their thinking/experience it might be the better range to keep AS for the best balance of performance. Good edge retention without being "chippy".
Barashka wrote:
Sat Apr 13, 2019 10:36 pm
- why not R2, as his other stellar lines do?
I can only make another assumption here. I'm no steel expert but AS may be the easier steel for them to forge and sharpen. This may have a lot to do with collaboration between Yu and Makoto as to how to best control the cost. It may also be something as simple as they wanted a carbon option, they already had the VG10 for a stainless option.

I may also just be full of shit and not have a clue...which is always a possibility! :D
I've read that AS can be one of the hardest steels to master, which just goes to show there is always conflicting information out there (because, like Jeff, I've also heard that W1 can be the hardest to master, and so on).

But my real reason for responding to this is just to reiterate that many smiths consider this a life-long process. Carter is a great example in this regard: well after his knives were very highly esteemed, he still continually emphasized that he was still improving and still had room to grow compared to what he learned in his training. Reading about other smiths, it is clear that taking a steel to very high HRC is a very special talent that can take decades to master—decades AFTER their knives and smithing abilities are already considered exemplary. As much as I deeply respect the Kurosaki brothers, I also feel it is important to emphasize that taking AS beyond 65 and having it hold up is a very, very special skill that is often a product of time and experience, and not mere talent. The same is true for W1, and B1, and so on.

Konosuke Fujiyamas are a great example of this. The smith, Kosuke, and other store fronts suggest these knives are HRC at near 65 for W1 and B1, and 63-4 for B2 (and above 65 for AS), yet most users have been happy to assume the their B2 Fujiyamas are as Mark states, at ~61 HRC. I attribute this to the fact that the heat treatments are so damn good that the steel acts and holds up as if it is still at a lower, more durable HRC despite sharpening and holding an edge like one at a much higher HRC. (I'd add T-Fs to this list: after a thorough initial sharpening, they hold up like a 61 HRC blade despite being 65, the main difference is that it was never a "secret" that they were HRC 65.) It is possible Kurosaki is getting closer to this, too, and that his knives are actually still acting like lower HRC even as he pushes the envelope above the stated claims. Or, it is possible he's not quite there yet even though he is clearly already a master smith.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by jbart65 »

Altadan wrote:
Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:22 pm
jbart65 wrote:
Mon Apr 15, 2019 11:48 am
It's probably unfair of me to comment much since I didn't use the Fujin AS, but it didn't seem worldly different than Kuro's Kurouchi AS or the Richmond (later Kurosaki) laser. I just didn't feel any need to keep it.

Part of my reaction may have been result of handling the knife. The out of box edge was not especially crisp - at least by Takefu/Masakage standards - and it may have needed a fresh sharpening. The tip was thinner than the Kurouchi, but the overall grind was definitely in the Yu/Makoto wheelhouse. Quite thin till midway up the blade, when it thickened quickly in a sort of semi-convex manner.

I am sure it's an excellent knife and great performer, but I was originally looking for a great rendition of VG10 that also had killer looks. The R2 is the best cutter of all the Kuros I've used and my favorite is Richmond/Kurosaki Laser. If I could have any one Kuro it would be the laser. I regret selling mine.
So, what's the word on you Fujin VG10's performance?
How's the rendition of the steel?
And, something I've been curious about, how is the food release on that grind and finish?

Thanks!
the curious cat

I finally picked up the Fujin VG10, Dan. The 210. Only got it a few weeks ago, so I want play around with it a bit more. Quite a looker, of course, and very refined. Reminded me of Konosuke knives. I don’t think it will match the peak sharpness of a carbon-edged knife, but it’s very sharp indeed.
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Altadan »

Sweet. Looking forward to hear the results of your benchmark tests ;)
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Delphonic »

Makoto Sakura is a lovely knife I can now personally attest.

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by jbart65 »

I've been using the Fujin for a few weeks now. Not much more to say about it. Great looker and nice handle, of course, and has a classic Kurosaki=Takefu Village feel. Good pusher and an above-average chopper and rocker. The tip is thin and sharp enough for precision work and the heel has enough meat on it for tougher stuff. A fairly light blade overall, though.

The VG10 steel is by no means a negative. Takes a keen edge and holds it well. I can tell its' not a higher-carbon edge, but it performs similarly to ginsan and Swedish steel. I'd give the VG10 the edge on wear and toughness, ginsan and Swedish steel the edge on peak sharpness.

The bigger news for me in terms of VG10 is the performance of my newly purchased Tanaka VG10 240. Whatever Tanaka does with VG10, it works better than any other VG10 knife I've tried. The edge matches if not exceeds the performance of ginsan and Swedish steel.

Granted, the Tanaka is thinner and a bit more laserlike than the Fujin, but it's not just the profile. I've tried both Tanaka's 210 and 240 VG10 Damascus knives and they both cut extremely well. Although the Damascus looks nice and resembles the pattern and profile of the Sekiso, the VG10 is actually much thinner and 2 ounces lighter.

The Damascus does cause some drag in cutting, but the knife is so sharp it doesn't matter all that much. Tanaka's knives are known for having more belly than most J knives, but I have never found them difficult to chop with. I just kind of arc my cuts with the back half of the knife and mostly avoid accordion cuts.

As thin as the Tanaka is, it does not feel dainty. I'd comfortable using the knife for anything.

In fact, I used it heavily last week to prepare five protein courses (shrimp, beef, chicken, pork, salmon) for 60 people at our annual block party. Plus sauces and such to go along with them. After 12 hours of prep, it was still as sharp as when I first got and no worse for the wear.
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by salemj »

jbart65 wrote:
Tue Sep 24, 2019 1:22 pm

The bigger news for me in terms of VG10 is the performance of my newly purchased Tanaka VG10 240. Whatever Tanaka does with VG10, it works better than any other VG10 knife I've tried. The edge matches if not exceeds the performance of ginsan and Swedish steel.

Granted, the Tanaka is thinner and a bit more laserlike than the Fujin, but it's not just the profile. I've tried both Tanaka's 210 and 240 VG10 Damascus knives and they both cut extremely well. Although the Damascus looks nice and resembles the pattern and profile of the Sekiso, the VG10 is actually much thinner and 2 ounces lighter.
Perhaps the secret is that he's using something other than VG10...hahaha. Sorry, I had to. But more seriously: yes, I continue to wonder about VG-10. It makes no sense, given the alloy, that it couldn't be just as great as other alloyed stainless steels with the right treatment. It isn't like it has a bad recipe, or is less controlled in terms of alloys, or that it comes from a lower-quality metal factory. So it is great to hear not only positive feedback, but real and honest comparative feedback that treats VG-10 like any other alloy. Thanks!
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by STPepper9 »

I’m still waiting for CKTG to get the Fujin AS bunka (hopefully with no handle)

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Jeff B »

I've been wanting to give VG10 a run after a lot of very good feedback from several places. After the bad stigma it got from some crap Shun runs I think the steel is starting to regain some of the popularity it had when it first hit the market. I went to buy a 210 vg10 Fujin the other day but waited to long and now it's OOS again...

Considering the AS Fujin too...just for the fun of it.
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Altadan »

I keep imagining that Shuns and the like must be "baked" in big batches, like cookies or something, and somehow mess up their heat-treat...
After all, many do claim that after an initial sharpening or two those Shuns behave well. Couldn't that be the case?
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by jbart65 »

After abnormally heavy use, the edge on the Tanaka VG10 dulled enough that I took it to the stones. It was no longer flicking thru onions.

Spent 5 minutes total on a 2k Kotetsu and 5k Cerax. After that the Tanaka was sharper than I received it otb. Didn’t even raise a burr.

In short, zero issues sharpening. Having sharpened a 210 Tanaka VG10 before, I know it’s very easy to raise and get rid of a burr on the Tanaka. Like any of my other knives.

Not sure i’ll keep it, but yeah, it’s another impressive offering by Tanaka. Very nice Damascus and the plain d handle seems to have better F&F than I remember on my Tanaka Sekiso bought several years ago.
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by jbart65 »

Altadan wrote:
Wed Sep 25, 2019 7:52 am
I keep imagining that Shuns and the like must be "baked" in big batches, like cookies or something, and somehow mess up their heat-treat...
After all, many do claim that after an initial sharpening or two those Shuns behave well. Couldn't that be the case?
I don't know, Dan, but my experience with VG10 knives is that they rarely achieve what I call peak sharpness relative to higher-carbon knives. The same has been true of VG10 knives I've tried that were made by Kurosaki or Kato the ... younger.

I'll have to give my Fujin the same treatment on a 2K and 5K as the Tanaka to see how sharp it gets and whether it can match the Tanaka.

The Tanaka VG10 feels, to me, as if it cuts as well as any stainless knife I have tried. Perhaps the only ones that's exceeded its performance were my old Kurosaki R2 or Takamura R2, but both of those were 210s with even thinner profiles.

Maybe it's the semi-laser profile of Tanaka's VG10. Maybe he gets a VG10 steel with a different recipe or slightly different heat treat. Or maybe it's just how he works the metal.

Whatever the case, it's an impressive performer. I am not sure if edge retention is as good as I initially thought, but it does sharpen easily and the metal is tougher than R2 or ginsan, it seems to me. Very little if any microchipping.
Jeffry B

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Altadan »

jbart65 wrote:
Tue Oct 01, 2019 10:35 am

Whatever the case, it's an impressive performer. I am not sure if edge retention is as good as I initially thought, but it does sharpen easily and the metal is tougher than R2 or ginsan, it seems to me. Very little if any microchipping.
Could you remind me what the attribute of "tougher" steel does for a knife?
Where does it come into play? The retention? The ridding of the Burr?
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by jbart65 »

Toughness has been described different ways, but I think of it in terms of wear and tear. Some knives chip or microchip easily if used roughly, especially on hard ingredients. Or maybe they dull more rapidly than a perceived norm might suggest.

The Tanaka VG10 seems to hold a good edge after constant use, with very little if any chipping. It also seems very solid despite its thinness and lightness. I don't feel like I have to baby it quite as much as I would a ginsan, shirogami or even an R2 blade. (Babying being a relative term. I don't really baby any knife since I have excellent technique.)

To give one example, a friend borrowed my wife's Kanehiro ginsan santoku and got a big chip just five minutes after picking it up. I doubt the Tanaka would have chipped under the same circumstances.

Put another way, Tanaka's VG10 seems more durable than other higher-carbon stainless I've tried without really sacrificing anything in the way of sharpness.
Jeffry B

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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by Altadan »

Sweet, sweet rec.
“If we conquer our passions it is more from their weakness than from our strength.”
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Re: Kurosaki Fujin

Post by jbart65 »

With the usual caveats, Dan.

Tanakas tend to have more sweep and belly than most other J knives and the handles are often quite basic. The D handle on the VG10 isn't all that bad. Better than what came with my Sekiso. But it's not going to wow anyone.

The VG10 chops fairly well, but I get fewer accordion cuts with the Sekiso or Tanaka Nashiji. The VG10 is best at pushing and rocking. The thinness of the tip and blade also make it good for detailed work. Since it doesn't patina, the Dasmascus on the VG10 really shines relative to the reactive Sekiso once a patina builds up.

I think the Tanaka VG10 is a really good gyuto, and great value, for both pros and home users who want a top-performing stainless knife. I give R2 an edge for pro kitchens given its great edge holding, but as I have said, the Tanaka VG10 is tougher.
Jeffry B

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