Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

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Kalaeb
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Kalaeb »

enjay wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 2:14 pm
Kalaeb wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am Eh, 1.9 on spine...I'm out. Why are all the super steels friggin lasers? Would love to see an pm steel some meat on the spine and a nice convex edge. Similar to Yoshikane but more distal taper, or Tanaka less the 500 dollar price tag lol.
That's gotta be a material cost issue, no?
Maybe. Core steel can still be thin. Extra material would be in cladding, I don't know how much that costs.

I assume the knife maker is not forging or laminating the sg2 core himself. Likely one company is producing a lot of thin laminated sheet stock that the knife makers can buy for cheap. Then they are just doing stock removal of the sheet. Getting a thicker stock is likely difficult from the steel provider...but it would still be cool/different.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Altadan »

So what, are ant of these gonna go up for a knife-of-the-month sort of passaround? That Yoshimi Kato promised laser performance, but was too pretty to deliver. This one should be more... promising? ;)
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Jeff B »

If I was to judge it by the way my Kurosaki R2 feels with a 2.6mm spine with a high thin grind, then this puppy will breeze through food but feel scary delicate as hell! I think I'm with Kalaeb on this one, it could probably use a little more meat on it's bones. Might not stop me from getting one though... :D
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Bensbites »

Altadan wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:35 pm So what, are ant of these gonna go up for a knife-of-the-month sort of passaround? That Yoshimi Kato promised laser performance, but was too pretty to deliver. This one should be more... promising? ;)
I would consider hosting one if there’s interest
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by slobound »

Bensbites wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:02 pm
Altadan wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:35 pm So what, are ant of these gonna go up for a knife-of-the-month sort of passaround? That Yoshimi Kato promised laser performance, but was too pretty to deliver. This one should be more... promising? ;)
I would consider hosting one if there’s interest
Ben, you know I am a Makoto fan boy. Count me in if you’re hosting a pass around.
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Kit Craft
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft »

cwillett wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:36 am
Kit Craft wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:15 am Interesting, I find the swept back choil very comfy and have never cut slipped nor cut myself. Maybe in-hand work with a short petty?
The Masakage Yuki has a forward swept choil. And it was a 150mm petty, so not much room for error.
Right, my poor wording. I too have the Yuki but not in a petty. Seems no issue on a gyuto though I could see how it might be on a petty. I get myself on a 90mm petty with a straight choil too though. I don't much care for the wide and short combo on a petty. In my natural grip my thumb is always in danger.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Altadan »

Bensbites wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:02 pm
Altadan wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 3:35 pm So what, are ant of these gonna go up for a knife-of-the-month sort of passaround? That Yoshimi Kato promised laser performance, but was too pretty to deliver. This one should be more... promising? ;)
I would consider hosting one if there’s interest
That's mighty generous, Ben!
I keep hearing the praise - sure I'd jump in if you host it ^_^
That's two already. I've a feeling that starting a thread will call out the others, too :mrgreen:
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Kit Craft
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft »

Kalaeb wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am Eh, 1.9 on spine...I'm out. Why are all the super steels friggin lasers? Would love to see an pm steel some meat on the spine and a nice convex edge. Similar to Yoshikane but more distal taper, or Tanaka less the 500 dollar price tag lol.
I with you. I have way too many lasers anyway. Well, I have four on hand but I have gone through a dozen.

You should be able to find a Wa Tanaka R2 in 240 for $320-400 depending on handle configuration and if you go direct through JP or not. FWIW.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Altadan »

Kit Craft wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:44 pm
Kalaeb wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am Eh, 1.9 on spine...I'm out. Why are all the super steels friggin lasers? Would love to see an pm steel some meat on the spine and a nice convex edge. Similar to Yoshikane but more distal taper, or Tanaka less the 500 dollar price tag lol.
I with you. I have way too many lasers anyway. Well, I have four on hand but I have gone through a dozen.

You should be able to find a Wa Tanaka R2 in 240 for $320-400 depending on handle configuration and if you go direct through JP or not. FWIW.
Wouldn't a beefy-super-steel be a real nuisance to thin? :oops:
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft »

Altadan wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:46 pm
Kit Craft wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 4:44 pm
Kalaeb wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am Eh, 1.9 on spine...I'm out. Why are all the super steels friggin lasers? Would love to see an pm steel some meat on the spine and a nice convex edge. Similar to Yoshikane but more distal taper, or Tanaka less the 500 dollar price tag lol.
I with you. I have way too many lasers anyway. Well, I have four on hand but I have gone through a dozen.

You should be able to find a Wa Tanaka R2 in 240 for $320-400 depending on handle configuration and if you go direct through JP or not. FWIW.
Wouldn't a beefy-super-steel be a real nuisance to thin? :oops:
I don't think it would be any worse than thinning any other stainless clad knife but I haven't done it. Not that soft stainless is fun or anything. Besides, I am a home user so that will be an issue 300 years from now. Hell, even zero grinding a thick iron clad wide bevel is no freaking fun if they are thick behind the edge. That is what they make professionals for. :lol:

Edit: Seriously, look at some of the projects we have seen on this forum. Like the Takeda that Ken posted awhile back. I would NEVER do a project like that by hand on stones, never. I did that one time with a mono carbon old hickory. Thinned it down on plates and after I realized that was going nowhere I switched to wet/dry and after a few (what seemed like hundered) sessions I decided I would never do such a thing by hand again.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by salemj »

Kalaeb wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am Eh, 1.9 on spine...I'm out. Why are all the super steels friggin lasers? Would love to see an pm steel some meat on the spine and a nice convex edge. Similar to Yoshikane but more distal taper, or Tanaka less the 500 dollar price tag lol.
This is what I was getting at above: if they are prelaminated, that may have something to do with why most are so thin. That said, Kurosaki's old Western R2 is/was NOT a laser.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Jeff B »

salemj wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:40 pm
Kalaeb wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am Eh, 1.9 on spine...I'm out. Why are all the super steels friggin lasers? Would love to see an pm steel some meat on the spine and a nice convex edge. Similar to Yoshikane but more distal taper, or Tanaka less the 500 dollar price tag lol.
This is what I was getting at above: if they are prelaminated, that may have something to do with why most are so thin. That said, Kurosaki's old Western R2 is/was NOT a laser.
Why not? The spine was only 2mm on that knife and it was very thin behind the edge but had awesome convexing.

The Kurosaki Shizuku R2 had a 3.3mm spine, the old Shiro Kamo a 3mm spine, those were more workhorses. Though the Shiro Kamo and Shizuku were good knives the best performing R2 knives I've used were lasers, including the Kurosaki Hammered Western.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by salemj »

Jeff B wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 8:19 pm
salemj wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 7:40 pm
Kalaeb wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 11:33 am Eh, 1.9 on spine...I'm out. Why are all the super steels friggin lasers? Would love to see an pm steel some meat on the spine and a nice convex edge. Similar to Yoshikane but more distal taper, or Tanaka less the 500 dollar price tag lol.
This is what I was getting at above: if they are prelaminated, that may have something to do with why most are so thin. That said, Kurosaki's old Western R2 is/was NOT a laser[/i].
Why not? The spine was only 2mm on that knife and it was very thin behind the edge but had awesome convexing.
The Kurosaki Shizuku R2 at 3.3mm had a thicker spine than the Western Hammered R2.
Well, the R2 I tried was a monster with a relatively low grind, but yes, probably still a similar "thinness" at the spine—but remember, this is a Western, which cannot be easily compared for spine thickness with a Wa (especially by Kurosaki who, like Kato, often maintains thicker tangs on his Wa knives, or at least he used to). I don't have notes on dimensions, but Steve's video cites 259 grams for the 240 (and still blade heavy, if I recall correctly). My loaner review highlights that is was nice and thin at the edge, but that it was also stout, felt bullet-proof, had minimal distal taper, and was most easily compared with the Takayuki ginsan (which is also definitely not a laser and also definitely one of the stoutest 210s I've ever used, even if it was nice and thin at the edge). I emphasized repeated that it has a lower-style grind, especially for the height—there was a lot of steel and weight at the top.

Not to beat a dead horse, but just to remind others: my definition of a laser has little to do with how thin something is at or just behind the edge, and a lot more to do with how it actually performs in terms of total grind, grace, and lack of resistance in the cut. The Kurosaki R2 Western is a wonderful knife and great performer, but I would never, ever, ever confuse it with a laser in terms of how it cuts. It's way too stout and too curvy in geometry (and you feel the curve in the geometry on anything harder than a tomato) to feel like a laser to me, plus it is HEAVY. Nonetheless, I ended my earlier review by writing: "I really can’t say more about performance other than, well, it really is every bit as good as you could possibly imagine for this type of knife with this type of grind at this price point (based on my limited experience). You are not paying for the handle. You are paying for something damn good. Similar grinds at lower price points just don’t compare to me. There is something special here, and I love it. Not my steel, and not my size (I like undersized 240s, not oversized ones), but definitely my style."

I hold the same opinion today after using many more knives. There are a couple reasons I'm not a Y. Kurosaki fanboy, but believe me, the quality and performance of his knives have NOTHING to do with why I only own one: I think he makes great steel that performs exceptionally well in the cut. I am just extra strict in separating really terrific performance with being a "laser," because some lasers DON'T perform well, and because a knife like the R2 Western can cut effortlessly without being a laser, in my opinion.
~Joe

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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Jeff B »

I completely understand and respect what your saying I just disagree. Lasers over the many years that I've been hanging around this place have been defined by spine and grind thickness and how it performs. The Kono HD set the spine standard at around 2.3mm. Being stout, oversized or heavy has never been a disqualifier to me. By your standards the GS+ Togatta and the Kashima aren't lasers because they are oversized. Of coarse a knife that is 16mm longer and 4mm taller than something like a Konosuke, plus have a western handle and bolster is going to be much heavier. My HD2 has a thicker spine that the Kuro Western had. And in my opinion, and it is just my opinion, the Kuro western I used performed as effortly as my HD2. It performed like a laser to me, and yes it did feel very stout and very heavy compared to any laser I've used but I don't disqualify it for those reasons. In essence you're saying an oversized western handled knife can't be a laser because it is to heavy.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by salemj »

Jeff B wrote: Mon Jun 04, 2018 9:26 pm I completely understand and respect what your saying I just disagree. Lasers over the many years that I've been hanging around this place have been defined by spine and grind thickness and how it performs. The Kono HD set the spine standard at around 2.3mm. Being stout, oversized or heavy has never been a disqualifier to me. By your standards the GS+ Togatta and the Kashima aren't lasers because they are oversized. Of coarse a knife that is 16mm longer and 4mm taller than something like a Konosuke, plus have a western handle and bolster is going to be much heavier. My HD2 has a thicker spine that the Kuro Western had. And in my opinion, and it is just my opinion, the Kuro western I used performed as effortly as my HD2. It performed like a laser to me, and yes it did feel very stout and very heavy compared to any laser I've used but I don't disqualify it for those reasons. In essence you're saying an oversized western handled knife can't be a laser because it is to heavy.
No issue, no complaints. However, I would correct one point: my standards are not based on size, and I don't mention size above as a limiting factor (I do mention weight in relation to size, and I see that perhaps caused confusion...and yes, you're absolutely right: I don't think a knife that is heavy for its size can easily be classified as a laser). Since you mention it, from what I understand, the grind, performance, weight, and feel of the Kashima would easily classify it as a laser; I don't know the Togatta as well, but if it is like the GS+ and other Konos, I would probably also classify it as a laser. They are "longer," but for their size, they are light and thin and are both known for having shoulderless, continuous grinds/geometry that remain thin for very high up the bladeface I would add that there have been plenty of threads where people debated what classified a laser for themselves, and I never recall there being a consensus of any type beyond the origins of the term and its relation to the Suisin Inox and the HD as two of the most popular versions in the West that helped start the popularity of the term—beyond that, it seems lots of people have different opinions. I'm fine with that, which is why I also try to state very clearly that I think the performance of the R2 Western is terrific for the type of grind it is.

We could go on and on, but I am confident that is not the point at all here. But I do want to highlight something important to me: people do commonly equate the idea of "laser" with a lighter knife, especially when it comes to professional prep. I absolutely respect and appreciate that the R2 "performed as effortlessly" as your HD, but I strongly doubt that one would say it takes the same amount of effort (or that it produces the same amount of fatigue) to use the R2 for three hours of prep as it does the HD; or, put another way, if someone said they wanted a "laser" to make hours of prep less fatiguing with not mention of handle type or overall weight, would you recommend the R2 Western? That is an important distinction for me, and I think you would agree that these types of distinctions have value. It just adds another dimension of differentiation is all—and I think many of us, perhaps even most of us, are continually looking for ways to better describe the many nuances of difference between blades. For these types of reasons, I try to use "laser" as a term more exclusively, to give it a more restrictive and precise meaning that I think is shared by a lot of people (even if NOT shared by all people). I also use it with confidence that at least 50% of people will think similarly to me. If I thought only 49% would get my point when I used the word laser, I'd change how I use it: the point, for me, is to try to be understood and convey meaning to the majority of people.

So, this is why (above) I wrote what I did. I hope it is pretty clear, and I also hope it is very clear that I'm not asking you to agree with me, but I do hope that what I wrote subsequently provides more nuance as to my experience with the R2 Western and how I think it performs, as well as how I think it might compare to other Kurosaki knives. Like I said: conveying that knowledge is the goal.
~Joe

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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by salemj »

Just to be absolutely crystal clear: I definitely agree most forum members use "laser" as an adjective loosely, but I do not agree they use it as a noun loosely. For example, many people write about Fujiyamas as having laserish grinds, or as being "LIKE as laser," etc., etc., but very, very, very few people on the forum call Fujiyamas "lasers." I say this because I don't want to be confused as ignoring your comment about past forum threads or discussion: I feel like I'm familiar with these, but I have a different takeaway.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft »

I like the idea of something that is "laser like" but has some rigidity as well as spine thickness. I have heard the term "laser like" applied to a load of knives that act similarly to a laser while having the qualities of a middleweight or even leaning toward the "workhorse" end of the spectrum. In fact, we had a thread directly about these terms and how they are not always used the same. Workhorse is another one. Some use it to mean their go-to, do-all knife while others use it to mean a larger blade with some mass. Steven always used the term, with me, of heavyweight, middleweight and lightweight and even adding a expletive to explain when something was between. Laser, as you said was used as an adjective in this sense rather than a noun too.

The Kurosaki laser is one I have seen people recommend, many times and make the distinction that it is not a "real" laser but it acts like one. I have not used one so I can not say. Just an example from the past that was often brought up.

Just don't get started on what is the primary and secondary--lol.
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by Jeff B »

All very good well articulated points Joe. Your thoughts, experiences and opinions are very good information to share for all of us. I must say you articulate very well various views and all the ways at looking at the nuances of this complicated passion of ours. One of the things I respect most about you is the way you can debate ideas and express yourself with total respect for others. You never let it get personal. Though not usually intentional, I can sound a little abrasive or condescending at times derailing productive conversation. Just thought I'd lay that out there....
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by mauichef »

Jeff B wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:53 am All very good well articulated points Joe. Your thoughts, experiences and opinions are very good information to share for all of us. I must say you articulate very well various views and all the ways at looking at the nuances of this complicated passion of ours. One of the things I respect most about you is the way you can debate ideas and express yourself with total respect for others. You never let it get personal. Though not usually intentional, I can sound a little abrasive or condescending at times derailing productive conversation. Just thought I'd lay that out there....
Well said Jeff. I can certainly get over excited at times. Good job I'm a mod and I can go back and do some editing :oops:
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Re: Makoto Sakura SG2 Gyuto

Post by salemj »

Jeff B wrote: Tue Jun 05, 2018 11:53 am All very good well articulated points Joe. Your thoughts, experiences and opinions are very good information to share for all of us. I must say you articulate very well various views and all the ways at looking at the nuances of this complicated passion of ours. One of the things I respect most about you is the way you can debate ideas and express yourself with total respect for others. You never let it get personal. Though not usually intentional, I can sound a little abrasive or condescending at times derailing productive conversation. Just thought I'd lay that out there....
Thanks, Jeff—that's a very kind and generous post! The reality is that such back-and-forths benefit everyone when the dialogue stays open, and I thank you for being someone who likes to encourage discussion in all directions while simultaneously stating your own perspective. As with the posts above, reading two people working out different perspectives on an idea is often way more revealing and informative than reading just one person's ideas...or just seeing everyone agree on something without ever discussing it. I've learned over time that you're often really willing to continue to follow-up on your posts with others, and I think that's fantastic.

The pressure on the forum is always to be short, sweet, and pithy. People who do that well but also have the experience to elaborate on vast experience with many knives (like yourself) are a real asset! I wish I could be more succinct and more entertaining myself. :)
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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