Makoto AS Nakiri

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CacahuateSommelier
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

CacahuateSommelier wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 12:01 pm PM me directly so I can keep track of everyone & keep your info private

Title: MAKOTO Nakiri (& your actual name)

Include in body:
*Shipping address
*paypal username

I will reply with my PayPal info.... Then once I have all your addresses and figure out the order I will pm you each individually the address you will be shipping to once you receive passaround. This way I’m not giving out everyone’s private info & you all have the info you need to ship once you receive it
keithmarder wrote: Wed Jul 18, 2018 2:29 pmSign me up
jbart65 wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 6:28 pm Vino, I mean, yes!
Gentlemen... please PM
Lepus wrote: Fri Jul 13, 2018 2:54 pm Oh, yes, I'm interested in a paid passaround.
Is it up to spec now Lepus? Or you gonna sit this one out... trying to get the ship order sorted
Chefspence
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by Chefspence »

:lol: when people are chomping at the bit, they forget instructions!!!
wphill
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by wphill »

Anyone have any first impressions, firsthand?
CacahuateSommelier
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

wphill wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 3:30 pm Anyone have any first impressions, firsthand?
So yes... I do.... just got it on Tuesday and have held it and broke down all of its measurements and what not...it is a fantastic looking knife and the grinds are 10/10 as are fit and finish. Handle is simple and excellent for what it is (howood with buffalo horn with no gaps, perfectly smooth transition from handle to ferrule, tight install with no gaps) but in the end the handle leaves much to be desired. With such a tall (therefore blade heavy) Nakiri I’d want a heavier custom handle(with significant weight on the butt) just so the balance point can be moved back maybe 10mm.... this would put it at pinch grip and would really make the blade “feel much lighter” as a whole

I’ve only used it on cutting up about 3lbs of carrots (made carrot sticks for snacks for the wife & kids for the week) absolutely effortless & offered ok food release and stiction was not an issue(KU finish really aids in release). When making fine matchsticks there was absolutely no stiction and food realease was excellent. Also cut some thin round slices and the product fell off with no stiction... overall it was a breeze going through the 3lbs

I also went through a bunch of potatoes and was a little disappointed overall in food release. Was able to make thin slices for a simple potatoe soup but not without dealing with notable stickage, but it did made nice thin cuts and with relative ease for being otb edge. No sticking issues with breaking down into 1/4s... &!it also passed the 1/2 potato stickage test every time.

Overall I am very happy with it... I’m pretty sure there is a lot of performance to pull out of it (with hands more skilled than mine) especially once a better edge is placed on it.... but I’ll leave that to the guys in the passaround
Last edited by CacahuateSommelier on Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
wphill
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by wphill »

CS,
Thoughtful commentary. I wholeheartedly agree about the balance point and that it probably would feel lighter if the balance point was much further back. 10mm is in the much range. As is, I feel as if I have a cleaver with a significant adjustment to master. Since I have hand issues, my admiration for Makoto may need to be extended to another one of his blades. Looking forward to reading more while I sit on the sidelines pondering and digesting any insights as to whether this is a good match for me. Maybe, it’s all in the grip as articulated in the current thread on cleavers. Until then, the blade will be in the box. One curious question...how do you think the grind compares to the gyuto? Same great quality but the geometry looks different.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

wphill wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 5:05 pm CS,
Thoughtful commentary. I wholeheartedly agree about the balance point and that it probably would feel lighter if the balance point was much further back. 10mm is in the much range. As is, I feel as if I have a cleaver with a significant adjustment to master. Since I have hand issues, my admiration for Makoto may need to be extended to another one of his blades. Looking forward to reading more while I sit on the sidelines pondering and digesting any insights as to whether this is a good match for me. Maybe, it’s all in the grip as articulated in the current thread on cleavers. Until then, the blade will be in the box. One curious question...how do you think the grind compares to the gyuto? Same great quality but the geometry looks different.
I’d say moving it 10mm is easily doable when balance is at 65mm.... the handle is ho-wood, so it is very lightweight.... you could easily double the handles weight with stabilized woods and then if you add on a hefty stainless steel end-cap... forget about it!

I quickly took 6 quarters and taped them to the end of the handle and that moves balance point to 40mm from ferrule (5mm behind my pinch... a bit too handle heavy for me!. That is a 25mm shift backwards.... super light ho-wood handle is not the right choice in my eyes for this blade.

Edit: reduced to 4 quarters and that brought balance point to 46mm from ferrule (effectively moving balnce 19 mm back) which is basically spot on my pinch grip. It performs a lot more nimbly & offers much better control... I still think too handle heavy as I like a little blade forward of pinchost of the time

....... 3 quarters now (balance at 52mm)..... hmmmmmm.... I like the added chopping power but my “less-experienced hand” really favors the more control 4 quarters offers.... I think the my happy spot will be about 48mm balance point

@5.67 grams/quarter....
4 quarters comes out to about 23grams
3 quarter comes out to about 17 grams
So a simple 20 gram endcap on this ho-wood handle would bring me to the promised land... I think a fancy (heavier) handle with a 5-10 gram stainless/metal cap will do the trick.. @bensbites what do you think?
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by wphill »

As far as magnolia wood handles go, his is the best I’ve held. Very nicely shaped, sanded and sealed. I still wonder if this tall nakiri was designed to be held like a cleaver and weight focused over the edge, not wasting it on the handle. If so, I would be inclined to give some relief to the edges of the neck.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by Bensbites »

When asked my opinion on the handle, I think this sounds like a candidate for stabilized wood. Maybe a metal cap, but those are not my preferred materials. Stabilized wood will be heavier throughout the handle. For what it’s worth, makotos are among the hardest handles to knock off. I have done it several times, but they take more banging than most.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by enjay »

I've only used a couple of nakiris, but wouldn't you want the balance point to be in front of the pinch so as to aid with the chopping? Curious why some would prefer it to be more neutral.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

enjay wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:39 pm I've only used a couple of nakiris, but wouldn't you want the balance point to be in front of the pinch so as to aid with the chopping? Curious why some would prefer it to be more neutral.
After using it I felt I would like it with a little more weight to the back.... after adding quarters to the heel I confirmed my thought & do enjoy a little more control .... it probably isn’t an issue for anyone but me.... we will see. This is my first time using a tall Nakiri period.... maybe my desire to have balance like a regular Nakiri is wrong IDK?

With that said I very much dislike 6qtrs as that puts balance behind my pinch and it feels very weird.... I think 3qtrs (7mm forward of pinch) feels good and offers plenty of chopping power and good control.... 20mm forward of pinch is just too much for me ..... I guess I’m a pansy
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by salemj »

enjay wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:39 pm I've only used a couple of nakiris, but wouldn't you want the balance point to be in front of the pinch so as to aid with the chopping? Curious why some would prefer it to be more neutral.
"Blade Heavy balance" is often actually a compensation for light blades. If the blade itself has some weight (as this nakiri surely does), then a more neutral balance still provides plenty of weight overall for cutting power. I generally prefer neutral balance near the pinch for weightier blades, as they still have weight in the cut, but they are much easier to control and lift and it prevents fatigue; similarly, if a light blade is handle heavy, it becomes very awkward because the tip "floats" and is harder to control in use. And if a heavier blade is blade heavy, it can be awkward and fatiguing to lift and control and the weight actually inhibits a sense of power and control in the cut. And so on. So, the point is, "balance" is more about the overall weight and balance in terms of control than merely weight in front of the hand for most blades, at least in my experience and in my reading of others experiences.

This promises to be an interest thread! CS—I LOVE LOVE LOVE the picture you took of the nakiri balanced on the cork, floating above the board! Totally awesome.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
CacahuateSommelier
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

salemj wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:42 pm
"Blade Heavy balance" is often actually a compensation for light blades. If the blade itself has some weight (as this nakiri surely does), then a more neutral balance still provides plenty of weight overall for cutting power. I generally prefer neutral balance near the pinch for weightier blades, as they still have weight in the cut, but they are much easier to control and lift and it prevents fatigue; similarly, if a light blade is handle heavy, it becomes very awkward because the tip "floats" and is harder to control in use. And if a heavier blade is blade heavy, it can be awkward and fatiguing to lift and control and the weight actually inhibits a sense of power and control in the cut. And so on. So, the point is, "balance" is more about the overall weight and balance in terms of control than merely weight in front of the hand for most blades, at least in my experience and in my reading of others experiences
Spot on with my experience.... good to hear someone make sense of it, for me.... it’s true, with “lasers” I really crave 10mm forward of pinch.... but with blades of more substance, just a few hairs forward or even right at pinch is great

It’s funny.... I felt unskilled when I was using the blade... today when I added 4 quarters I felt like I knew what I was doing & could actually make the cuts I wanted to make at the speed I wanted... it took me much longer to process product accurately.... I think I’ll leave the quarters on over the weekend while I use it
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by enjay »

salemj wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 9:42 pm
enjay wrote: Thu Jul 19, 2018 8:39 pm I've only used a couple of nakiris, but wouldn't you want the balance point to be in front of the pinch so as to aid with the chopping? Curious why some would prefer it to be more neutral.
"Blade Heavy balance" is often actually a compensation for light blades. If the blade itself has some weight (as this nakiri surely does), then a more neutral balance still provides plenty of weight overall for cutting power. I generally prefer neutral balance near the pinch for weightier blades, as they still have weight in the cut, but they are much easier to control and lift and it prevents fatigue; similarly, if a light blade is handle heavy, it becomes very awkward because the tip "floats" and is harder to control in use. And if a heavier blade is blade heavy, it can be awkward and fatiguing to lift and control and the weight actually inhibits a sense of power and control in the cut. And so on. So, the point is, "balance" is more about the overall weight and balance in terms of control than merely weight in front of the hand for most blades, at least in my experience and in my reading of others experiences.
Perfect explanation. Thanks.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by jbart65 »

Well, it will be interesting to test the nakiri out.

Personally, I prefer a forward weight to a nakiri, even one well in front of the pinch, to aid in chopping. While a smaller nakiri can do horizontal cuts fairly well on some products, a bigger one like this is meant to stay more vertical.

Adding more weight to a handle also is likely to put the total weight above 8 oz. Maybe this isn't the case for very big guys, but I find that once a knife tops half a pound, the law of diminishing returns really sets it. Heavier knives are less nimble and cause more fatigue.

I only own one knife now that weighs more than 8 oz and just barely so, a Messermeister Stealth Elite Oliva 9-inch chef knife. Doesn't fell like it weighs that much either because it's so well distributed. It would be hard to get the same feel in a nakiri like this given the weightiness of the blade relative to the current handle. But I imagine the more creative handle makers among us could pull it off.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by wphill »

While the Matsubara tall nakiri is over 8 ounces, I...too...prefer not to add weight to this one.
I keep going back to the world of cleavers.
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Post by gladius » Wed Jun 13, 2018 1:11 am

There is a solution to most every problem. Proceed as if you ONLY have a cleaver. Technique adjustment is one thing you can do. The pull cutting works well on a variety of product. To control the weight you can further adjust your grip from a two finger peace grip to a three finger grip for more control of the front of the blade.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

wphill wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:55 am To control the weight you can further adjust your grip from a two finger peace grip to a three finger grip for more control of the front of the blade.
Funny you bring this up.... I’ve never had a reason to use a “super pinch grip/3 finger pinch) so it isn’t natural to me right now but it could be easily adapted. But If I were to adapt this grip it would place pinch at 60-65mm effectively solving the problem... I tried it a few days ago & it was ballanced... it just didn’t feel natural, but once upon a time only hammer grip felt natural and those days are long gone
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by wphill »

I even wonder if when mincing it would be effective to employ a second hand that gently grasps the far end od the spine. Lightens the blade, serves as a pivot and guide. All hypothetically.
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

wphill wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:19 pm I even wonder if when would be effective to employ a second hand that gently grasps the far end od the spine. Lightens the blade, serves as a pivot and guide. All hypothetically.
I personally wouldn’t reach for this blade when rock chopping. Id mostly use it for chopping & push/pull cuts & if I need 2 hands to guide the blade 😳.... I think it’s safe to say it’s not going to be the knife for me
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by gladius »

CacahuateSommelier wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:06 am
wphill wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:55 am To control the weight you can further adjust your grip from a two finger peace grip to a three finger grip for more control of the front of the blade.
Funny you bring this up.... I’ve never had a reason to use a “super pinch grip/3 finger pinch) so it isn’t natural to me right now but it could be easily adapted. But If I were to adapt this grip it would place pinch at 60-65mm effectively solving the problem... I tried it a few days ago & it was ballanced... it just didn’t feel natural, but once upon a time only hammer grip felt natural and those days are long gone
---
It is a common cleaver grip...even a four finger pinch!
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Re: Makoto AS Nakiri

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

gladius wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 3:27 pm
CacahuateSommelier wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 11:06 am
wphill wrote: Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:55 am To control the weight you can further adjust your grip from a two finger peace grip to a three finger grip for more control of the front of the blade.
Funny you bring this up.... I’ve never had a reason to use a “super pinch grip/3 finger pinch) so it isn’t natural to me right now but it could be easily adapted. But If I were to adapt this grip it would place pinch at 60-65mm effectively solving the problem... I tried it a few days ago & it was ballanced... it just didn’t feel natural, but once upon a time only hammer grip felt natural and those days are long gone
---
It is a common cleaver grip...even a four finger pinch!
Yeah.... I’ve seen people do it on Chinese cleavers... not saying it’s a new thing.... I’ve just never used the grip... so its just a new thing for me.... I’ve even seen many people 3 finger gripvirtually all their knives
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