Harder versions of white and blue

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desol
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by desol » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:16 pm

Jeff B wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:54 am
The edges of some knives are also fatigued coming from the smiths shop depending on how they were sharpened making them chippy. Sharpening and exposing fresh steel stops the chipping. This is not a new or uncommon phenomenon.
I've had this happen as well and it's not uncommon to get a new knife with a slightly chippy edge.

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Jeff B
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by Jeff B » Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:47 pm

desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:16 pm
Jeff B wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:54 am
The edges of some knives are also fatigued coming from the smiths shop depending on how they were sharpened making them chippy. Sharpening and exposing fresh steel stops the chipping. This is not a new or uncommon phenomenon.
I've had this happen as well and it's not uncommon to get a new knife with a slightly chippy edge.
Good to see you hangin' out more lately Darrick!
If God wanted me to be a vegetarian he wouldn't have made animals taste so good.

gladius
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by gladius » Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:33 pm

desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:15 pm
So far I like Moritaka Santoku, Gihei Santoku/petty, Takeda, etc. High hardness AS.
---
I don't think Takeda takes his AS up too hard, maybe 62HRC?

Runner_up
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by Runner_up » Sun Apr 07, 2019 6:49 am

gladius wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 9:33 pm
desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:15 pm
So far I like Moritaka Santoku, Gihei Santoku/petty, Takeda, etc. High hardness AS.
---
I don't think Takeda takes his AS up too hard, maybe 62HRC?
Correct, takeda does not take his knives super hard. Most makers stay in that 61-63 hrc range. Off hand I think of Moritaka, TF, and Yoshikazu Tanaka (blacksmith of the Fujiyama knives) for the three makers that are known for high hardness knives.

snipes
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by snipes » Sun Apr 07, 2019 8:10 am

Jeff B wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:47 pm
desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:16 pm
Jeff B wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:54 am
The edges of some knives are also fatigued coming from the smiths shop depending on how they were sharpened making them chippy. Sharpening and exposing fresh steel stops the chipping. This is not a new or uncommon phenomenon.
I've had this happen as well and it's not uncommon to get a new knife with a slightly chippy edge.
Good to see you hangin' out more lately Darrick!
+1

MisoSatisfried
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by MisoSatisfried » Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:26 pm

inzite wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:20 am
it has to be TFTFTFTF, tf's don't chip with the right board, technique and sharpening. I believe he is one of the only smiths who take the steel (white 1 and blue super) to almost the absolute usable max. His nashiji is softer than his maboroshi and with the denka being the hardest.
TF was my thought as well. I only have his white steel and I love it. Wish I had some of his AS.
I'm Dave. I don't take myself too seriously and you probably shouldn't either.

snipes
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by snipes » Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:44 am

MisoSatisfried wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:26 pm
inzite wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:20 am
it has to be TFTFTFTF, tf's don't chip with the right board, technique and sharpening. I believe he is one of the only smiths who take the steel (white 1 and blue super) to almost the absolute usable max. His nashiji is softer than his maboroshi and with the denka being the hardest.
TF was my thought as well. I only have his white steel and I love it. Wish I had some of his AS.
At the risk of being redundant to my previous #1, a big #1 to this as well. I've had a semi custom Mobarishi for a number of years now and his white steel seems simply different than others I've used. I'm a fan of AS steel as well, but could never get myself to pull the trigger on one of TF's Denkas due to the big premium he charges compared to the Mobarishi. I can't see the justification in my mind on the increase in material cost or labor to produce it. Going from memory it seems like it was close to double, or just shy of that number.

Desol, I also have a Moritaka AS petty that while ugly, is a great knife. Excellent hard crisp feeling steel. Whenever I think I may be tiring of the blade a quick touch up on the stones reminds me of why I still keep it around.

inzite
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by inzite » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:45 am

snipes wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 6:44 am
MisoSatisfried wrote:
Sun Apr 07, 2019 4:26 pm
inzite wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 8:20 am
it has to be TFTFTFTF, tf's don't chip with the right board, technique and sharpening. I believe he is one of the only smiths who take the steel (white 1 and blue super) to almost the absolute usable max. His nashiji is softer than his maboroshi and with the denka being the hardest.
TF was my thought as well. I only have his white steel and I love it. Wish I had some of his AS.
At the risk of being redundant to my previous #1, a big #1 to this as well. I've had a semi custom Mobarishi for a number of years now and his white steel seems simply different than others I've used. I'm a fan of AS steel as well, but could never get myself to pull the trigger on one of TF's Denkas due to the big premium he charges compared to the Mobarishi. I can't see the justification in my mind on the increase in material cost or labor to produce it. Going from memory it seems like it was close to double, or just shy of that number.

Desol, I also have a Moritaka AS petty that while ugly, is a great knife. Excellent hard crisp feeling steel. Whenever I think I may be tiring of the blade a quick touch up on the stones reminds me of why I still keep it around.
The denkas are worth the extra, it gets as keen as the white 1s somehow but the edge retention is significantly longer almost rivaling R2. All that has been said above is correct in that ootb edges are often fragile - my original reply is on the assumption after a sharpening from 1k and up. TFs are unique, stainless clad with white 1 and blue super taken to the extreme ends of hardness and available in both yo or wa handle - with proper sharpening and care during use they deliver one of a kind results.

inzite
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by inzite » Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:49 am

desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:15 pm
Nmiller21k wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm
desol wrote:
Thu Apr 04, 2019 11:05 pm


I remember those. I think the first ones had problems with chipping.

The problems with high HRC whites / blues are user techniques.
I took a TF through an entire case of butternut and acorn squash splitting them.
No chips.
It’s all end user and people don’t like to admit fault, blame the smith complain to mark and then mark stops featuring him.
His products are an absolute joy to work with if you use proper technique and skill.
That's good to hear. I didn't know what to make of it, only that I knew his knives were hardened up quite a bit. Almost a pseudo Honyaki.
So far I like Moritaka Santoku, Gihei Santoku/petty, Takeda, etc. High hardness AS.
i believe TFs are harder than honyakis.

marcel2006
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by marcel2006 » Mon Apr 08, 2019 5:53 pm

desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:16 pm
Jeff B wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 11:54 am
The edges of some knives are also fatigued coming from the smiths shop depending on how they were sharpened making them chippy. Sharpening and exposing fresh steel stops the chipping. This is not a new or uncommon phenomenon.
I've had this happen as well and it's not uncommon to get a new knife with a slightly chippy edge.
I received my Makoto with some micro chips. I remember Jeff told me to do a full progress sharpening and everything is perfect now. No more micro chips on my edge since then.

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desol
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by desol » Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:40 pm

inzite wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:49 am
desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:15 pm
Nmiller21k wrote:
Fri Apr 05, 2019 5:03 pm



The problems with high HRC whites / blues are user techniques.
I took a TF through an entire case of butternut and acorn squash splitting them.
No chips.
It’s all end user and people don’t like to admit fault, blame the smith complain to mark and then mark stops featuring him.
His products are an absolute joy to work with if you use proper technique and skill.
That's good to hear. I didn't know what to make of it, only that I knew his knives were hardened up quite a bit. Almost a pseudo Honyaki.
So far I like Moritaka Santoku, Gihei Santoku/petty, Takeda, etc. High hardness AS.
i believe TFs are harder than honyakis.
I wouldn't think so. I know many Honyaki's are 68-69 hrc before tempering.

salemj
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by salemj » Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:31 pm

You can always try (another) Kono Fujiyama. Recent reliable chatter from the supplier has these coming in around HRC 64-5 for W1 and B. This includes the ones sold on Mark's site, despite the write-ups...other sites have listed these closer to 64-5 for some time, as you know.

I've learned a lot from my TF. If your only interest is hard, they have it, but if you want a thinner blade, especially at the edge, I'd look elsewhere. I use my TF mostly for small-batch mincing and avocados (including pit removal). No issues after sharpening it myself...but also nowhere near the kind of effortless cut you get from thinner edges.

Otherwise, the Takeda (NAS) I owned was very hard, as is my Bloodroot and my Nubatama. I would guess any of these brands to be reliably near peak hardness for a non-honyaki, and the steels are all essentially Hitachi quality.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

Igalor
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by Igalor » Sun Apr 14, 2019 11:54 pm

TF W1 feels very hard, as does hinoura w2, also yoshikane take their steels to the harder side of things. Takedas have excellent edge retention, but they are also very, very though, and i dont think thay are as hard, i was also under the impression that takeda doesnt ht his blades in house. As much as i like my fujiyamas and their amazing steels, they dont feel as hard on the board or the stones as TF, and are nowhere near in edge retention, at least in my experience.

inzite
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by inzite » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:07 am

desol wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:40 pm
inzite wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:49 am
desol wrote:
Sat Apr 06, 2019 8:15 pm


That's good to hear. I didn't know what to make of it, only that I knew his knives were hardened up quite a bit. Almost a pseudo Honyaki.
So far I like Moritaka Santoku, Gihei Santoku/petty, Takeda, etc. High hardness AS.
i believe TFs are harder than honyakis.
I wouldn't think so. I know many Honyaki's are 68-69 hrc before tempering.
I think after all is said and done and ready for the stores, i think honyaki typically sits between 63-65 hrc while TF denkas are slightly higher at 65-67. Then again all this hrc stuff is often inaccurate based on my previous chat with [email protected] but he did mention that TFs in particular are taken to almost the far end of max for the respective steels.

inzite
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by inzite » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:09 am

salemj wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:31 pm
You can always try (another) Kono Fujiyama. Recent reliable chatter from the supplier has these coming in around HRC 64-5 for W1 and B. This includes the ones sold on Mark's site, despite the write-ups...other sites have listed these closer to 64-5 for some time, as you know.

I've learned a lot from my TF. If your only interest is hard, they have it, but if you want a thinner blade, especially at the edge, I'd look elsewhere. I use my TF mostly for small-batch mincing and avocados (including pit removal). No issues after sharpening it myself...but also nowhere near the kind of effortless cut you get from thinner edges.

Otherwise, the Takeda (NAS) I owned was very hard, as is my Bloodroot and my Nubatama. I would guess any of these brands to be reliably near peak hardness for a non-honyaki, and the steels are all essentially Hitachi quality.
yep most TFs don't come that thin - only one in many would be very thin behind the edge out of the box - typical TF variation but thin thin examples do exist ootb as I've handled a good number of them in the metal so to say.

salemj
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by salemj » Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:41 am

inzite wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:09 am
salemj wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 10:31 pm
You can always try (another) Kono Fujiyama. Recent reliable chatter from the supplier has these coming in around HRC 64-5 for W1 and B. This includes the ones sold on Mark's site, despite the write-ups...other sites have listed these closer to 64-5 for some time, as you know.

I've learned a lot from my TF. If your only interest is hard, they have it, but if you want a thinner blade, especially at the edge, I'd look elsewhere. I use my TF mostly for small-batch mincing and avocados (including pit removal). No issues after sharpening it myself...but also nowhere near the kind of effortless cut you get from thinner edges.

Otherwise, the Takeda (NAS) I owned was very hard, as is my Bloodroot and my Nubatama. I would guess any of these brands to be reliably near peak hardness for a non-honyaki, and the steels are all essentially Hitachi quality.
yep most TFs don't come that thin - only one in many would be very thin behind the edge out of the box - typical TF variation but thin thin examples do exist ootb as I've handled a good number of them in the metal so to say.
Yeah. I also think this improves retention (in response to some other comments above, too). The actual edge of many TFs I've seen (and including my own) is a more obtuse triangle—lots of meat behind the edge and a bigger wedge, as it were. And for me, this affects sharpening: I know to "hit" the edge, I'm always sharpening at a more obtuse angle versus some of my other knives, even when I start lower—the steel is hard enough that it just pushes you in that direction. I actually put Takedas in a similar category: while "zero" grind, they are not as thin behind the edge and have far more meat than other knives, which helps retention in major ways. And they are also considerably difficult to "alter" in terms of bevels and such in this regard because they are so hard (esp. the NAS). All of this provides reinforcement for heavier lifting and retention. I have other knives that are quite hard but thinner behind the edge and they don't hold up as long in rougher tasks...but they also hold much keener, thinner, and more exacting (and "sharp") edges. Near the edge, even the smallest visual differences can be doublings in measured thickness (.01 versus .02; .04 versus .08).

I have yet to experience a knife that can avoid these compromises (thicker-stronger-better retention vs. thinner-keener-worse), regardless of hardness. Fujiyamas are a nice example here: I think they tend to be on the harder side of the spectrum, but they definitely don't "feel" it compared to knives with more meat behind the edge, and I attribute this to the fact that the edges are thin enough that they flex and give more than others, acting a bit softer in feel and requiring less work on the stones given their thinness and the fact that they have iron skins (when thinning...versus the very hard stainless skins of TFs and Takedas, for example).
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

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desol
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Re: Harder versions of white and blue

Post by desol » Tue Apr 16, 2019 11:42 am

inzite wrote:
Tue Apr 16, 2019 10:07 am
desol wrote:
Sun Apr 14, 2019 9:40 pm
inzite wrote:
Mon Apr 08, 2019 8:49 am


i believe TFs are harder than honyakis.
I wouldn't think so. I know many Honyaki's are 68-69 hrc before tempering.
I think after all is said and done and ready for the stores, i think honyaki typically sits between 63-65 hrc while TF denkas are slightly higher at 65-67. Then again all this hrc stuff is often inaccurate based on my previous chat with [email protected] but he did mention that TFs in particular are taken to almost the far end of max for the respective steels.
I kind of think of Teruyasu Fujiwara as a sort of honyaki knockoff. Pseudo Honyaki San Mai.

I was assuming that most Honyaki sat in the 66-67 range post tempering.

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