210 or 240 Gyuto? Can't decide!

[Altadan]

Wow, haha.
Spoken like a true knife instructor

So, are you any closer to making a choice? Seems like something with a belly is order

Lol thank you for the compliment! I was a little worried I was going to anger some people with that last comment. Lol!

I think I'm honestly leaning towards a 240mm judging by the consensus here. I think the extra length may prove a little more helpful with larger fruits and veg such as watermelon, honeydew melon, large heads of cabbage, as well as providing a little more usable cutting edge for slicing meats or filleting a whole fish.

So provided I feel comfortable working with the longer blade length (which I am totally comfortable) and provided I have enough work space (which I do), I think the larger 240mm may be of slightly more use and offer more overall versatility than the 210. But then again, I could certainly be wrong! Haha! All we can do in life is make the best decisions we can, given the facts we receive; the rest is shit luck! Lol

Glad you took it as such
If you posted it as a subject in the general discussion, I'm sure you'd get the argument going, and perhaps receive some flak for it.
To be honest, I find most of what you said highly debatable, and just disagree on a several points, but we're all entitled to opinions, based on our diverse experiences and exposures.
Technique, practice, preference, enjoyment... many factors go into the effectiveness of chopping.

In any case, I think you'd find a 240 very agreeable. Tell us which one you get when you do, and good luck with the rest!

[jbart65]

Ultimately I think it's best to have a few knives of different sizes. Start out with a 240 and get a 210 later.

Your views on chopping, I have to admit, made me laugh. Experienced cooks, like many of us on this site, are quite proficient and efficient at chopping.

I am not this good, alas, but may I present the vaunted Aaron Gibson. You'd be amazed at what a skilled knife user in the kitchen can do with a supersharp Japanese knife. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGuu2-OBLEU

[DSchwemin]

Like any true "teacher", I am always open to people changing my mind. I'd be happy to listen to you guys that advocate for tap chopping and would even be eager to see if you could change my opinions of it. But while we're being truthful I must say that one of the biggest reasons I dislike tap chopping is simply the noise, LOL! I find the noise to just be freaking annoying! Especially when I'm trying to work and someone else is tap chopping near me. It honestly makes me want to throw something at them after only a few minutes of listening to it. But hey, everyone's got their pet peeves.

[DSchwemin]

Ultimately I think it's best to have a few knives of different sizes. Start out with a 240 and get a 210 later.

Your views on chopping, I have to admit, made me laugh. Experienced cooks, like many of us on this site, are quite proficient and efficient at chopping.

I am not this good, alas, but may I present the vaunted Aaron Gibson. You'd be amazed at what a skilled knife user in the kitchen can do with a supersharp Japanese knife. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HGuu2-OBLEU

Ok so I just watched the video you linked as well as some other videos he's made. -thank you for the link btw!

I did make a few observations while watching him work. First, as a professional blade sharpener I have always found it rather perplexing that the "Japanese gyuto community" usually take the time and effort to finish their gyutos as high as 8k (sometimes even higher) only to then go right to smashing their knife repeatedly into the board as this Aaron guy does in this video. It's not a far throw from stropping a straight razor then doing the same thing. Lol. It's just going to instantly break down that ultra-fine edge they worked so hard to get, which defeats the purpose of taking all that time to polish a knife up to 8k+ in the first place. It's kind of like fine tuning your Ferrari motor to get the best 0-60mph time, only to then take it 4-wheeling.

Second thing I noticed besides the chopping noise being extremely annoying was that in nearly every video I watched from Aaron was that his tap chopping ended up flinging the food everywhere. I don't find that to be very skillful in the kitchen. If you ever watch Michelin starred chef's work in the kitchen they are very precise and controlled with how they work around the cutting board. You will never see them flinging food all over the place.

That being said, I'm certainly not trying to tell anyone else how they should be using a knife. It's their knife, and they should use it in whatever manner brings them joy. I'm just simply listing the reasons why I personally choose not to tap chop.

[jbart65]

I chop about 60% of the time. After a while one learns not to hit the board hard. The noise is often a small staccato, almost pleasantly rhythmic, like a drumming session. What's more, most of the food I cut hardly moves. I suspect Gibson is merely doing for video effect, though some knives are "stickier" than others and the food can fly.

Even with all the chopping, the edges of my Japanese knives take a long, long time to dull, especially on a good end-grain board. Usually I just need a two-minute touchup every now and then.

I fine tune my Ferrari motor, so to speak, so I can chop cleanly, quickly and efficiently. I don't see chopping as akin to four-wheeling in any manner at all. Indeed, I view not chopping as failing to take advantage of what these knives can do in the hands of a skilled user.

You probably need to use some of these knives awhile to get a better sense of what they can and cannot do, but to each his own. I am not seeking a debate or to try to change anyone's mind. I teach family and friends how to rock, pull, push, glide and chop. It's up to them to choose.

[DSchwemin]

I chop about 60% of the time. After a while one learns not to hit the board hard. The noise is often a small staccato, almost pleasantly rhythmic, like a drumming session. What's more, most of the food I cut hardly moves. I suspect Gibson is merely doing for video effect, though some knives are "stickier" than others and the food can fly.

Even with all the chopping, the edges of my Japanese knives take a long, long time to dull, especially on a good end-grain board. Usually I just need a two-minute touchup every now and then.

I fine tune my Ferrari motor, so to speak, so I can chop cleanly, quickly and efficiently. I don't see chopping as akin to four-wheeling in any manner at all. Indeed, I view not chopping as failing to take advantage of what these knives can do in the hands of a skilled user.

You probably need to use some of these knives awhile to get a better sense of what they can and cannot do, but to each his own. I am not seeking a debate or to try to change anyone's mind. I teach family and friends how to rock, pull, push, glide and chop. It's up to them to choose.

I must say, that was very eloquent! Thank you for being so understanding! Like I said, I am certainly not trying to offend anyone here as I know everyone has their own preference. Who knows, maybe at some point I’ll begin to enjoy chopping as well! But for right now, I just prefer either rocking, or push/pull cutting.

I also gotta say that I’m so impressed by everyone’s eagerness to help fellow knife users on this forum! It’s quite a breath of fresh air. You guys are a great group of people and I certainly hope I can be of some help at some point. So a BIG thank you to all who took time out of their busy days to comment on my thread! It was certainly appreciated, and gave me a lot to go on.

I look forward to talking with you all in the future, as I’m sure I will have more questions soon with regards to gyuto brand suggestions. Until then, thank you so much everyone! You guys rock!

[Altadan]

Until then, thank you so much everyone! You guys rock!

This really is a great forum, made so by many thoughtful contributors.
Yes, we really DO rock, I suppose, and push around, and pull, and... chopchopchop.
Ok, that's enough of that now! Welcome to the forum, DSchwemin

[Kalaeb]

That you are here asking questions means at some point you will likely own a large amount of both. That being said, when I was in professional kitchens I always tended towards larger knives. Now that i am just a home cook, I use smaller knives. My ultimate size is about 225mm. Either an undersized 240, or an oversized 210 are great for me.

A long time ago Salty posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq37b1wG-yo
something to think about.

[btbyrd]

I was afraid of getting my first 240, but I quickly got used to it and ended up eventually ordering longer gyutos. But 240 is kind of at the sweet spot for length on a gyuto... you won't feel an acute need for a longer blade, like you do when cutting melons or cabbage with a 210. And it won't be quite so long that you can't set it down easily on a small cutting board. 240mm is smack-dab in the middle of the Goldilocks Zone. Try one... I'm pretty sure you'll like it.

[DSchwemin]

That you are here asking questions means at some point you will likely own a large amount of both. That being said, when I was in professional kitchens I always tended towards larger knives. Now that i am just a home cook, I use smaller knives. My ultimate size is about 225mm. Either an undersized 240, or an oversized 210 are great for me.

A long time ago Salty posted this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq37b1wG-yo
something to think about.

Kalaeb you don't know me, but clearly know me all too well! LOL!! I will most certainly end up owning many gyutos of different sizes given enough time and money! Hehe!

Thanks for the video link! I actually came across that video a couple weeks ago when I was trying to look for videos on YouTube to help me decide what size chef knife I should go for. The guy certainly made a good point. However, my only concern would be in a given situation where I'm trying to cut on a smaller board that may not be large enough to accommodate a 240. By "given situations" I'm referring to when I may bring my knives to family's homes to cook for the holiday gatherings or if I have a dinner party at my foodie friend's homes where I'm going to help in prepping dinner with them. More often than not, it seems all too common that people don't seem to ever buy properly sized cutting boards- unless they're "knife people", which is usually not the case! Lol.

So that's really the only reason I could see for opting for a 210, as it's the closest in size to the universal 8" chef knife. Granted, if you're trying to process large quantities of food or doubling up on potatos like that guy Salty did in this video, then sure, a 240 is going to make life easier. But as home cooks (even having a large dinner party for 12) there's really no rush on cutting like there would be in a professional kitchen, so you can cut one thing at a time. So the need for something larger than an 8" chef knife is usually not there.
So at the end of the day I look at them like this:

210-
Pros:
-cheaper to purchase

-more versatile in cramped kitchens or when used on small cutting boards

-most chef knives in general are always offered in an 8" option whereas larger sizes are not always offered or are not offered in a standard size (i.e. You may only have an option for 9", 9.5", or 10") and you don't always know what models will offer what sizes once you step up from an 8". Note: I'm referring to mass produced chef knives here, not necessarily the knives offered here at CKTG.

-Since 8" is considered the universal standard for a chef knife, an 8" will likely be the most common size chef knife you will find in anyone's home, so it's always nice to be comfortable using the most commonly encountered size.

Cons: may be difficult to process larger amounts of product at one time (i.e. Ability to fit more product under the blade at a given time).

-may pose difficulty when processing extremely large items such as watermelon, large cabbage, jackfruit, etc.

240-

Pros:
- able to process larger ingredients (see above)

- able to process larger amounts of product at once (i.e. Able to fit more products under the blade)

- makes a better slicer for protein due to extra cutting edge length.


Cons:
-size may be inconvenient in cramped kitchens or when working with small cutting boards, especially when rock chopping where the tip of the blade may slip off the front end of a small cutting board

- slightly more inconvenient in terms of storage with regards to fitting in universal knife blocks or knife docks for drawers

-more expensive to purchase when compared to 210.



Anyways, that's what I could come up with off the top of my head. Please feel free to add to it!

[Cutuu]

Not much I would say that hasn't been said. Throw my vote in for 240 unless space is an issue.

Out of curiosity what kind of board are you using, perhaps you would get into chopping more with something different.

Welcome to the board by the way.

Hey thanks man! I'm honestly so taken aback by everyone's willingness to help on this forum! You guys are awesome! Thank you all so much! I've been reading everyone's comments and found them to all be so helpful. It gives me so much to consider as well. I believe I'm honestly leaning towards a 240mm gyuto after reading everyone's suggestions. I don't feel uncomfortable using a longer blade, as I have very good technique.

I'm actually a HUGE knife nerd and have been for probably 25 years or so. I've studied knife use in many arenas such as 22 years of martial arts which included blade combatives. I am also currently a wilderness survival instructor and teach knife safety, maintenance, and usage as a specialty. I'm also an aspiring home cook and have taken many courses at cooking schools in my area which included numerous knife skills courses; after which I would routinely purchase 10lb bags of potatoes from the grocery store and spend hours at home practicing knife skills. So at this point, I feel pretty confident to say I could hang with just about any pro as far as knife skills are concerned...however, actually "cooking" is a different story! Haha! My main love of the kitchen revolves around knives, lol.

Sorry for rambling, but as for your question regarding what kind of cutting board I use; I have many. I'd say I swap pretty evenly between a poly board and a couple wooden boards I own. I have a 12"x12" end grain Wusthof board that gets some use but is a little small when I'm trying to prep quite a bit of product and using a 10" chef knife. I also just picked up a larger wooden edge grain board that I found at TJ Max (funny, I know!) that I believe is 19"x15" maybe? Don't quote me on the size as I'm at work right now and can't get the exact measurements, but it's roughly about that size and much more accommodating. Then I have a poly board that is sized somewhere in the middle of my 2 wooden boards (15"x12") maybe? Sorry, wish I could provide you accurate specs here.

As for tap chopping; I generally don't prefer to tap chop for a few reasons but please keep in mind that these are simply (my) reasons and I'm not trying to step on anyone else's toes that may feel differently than I do.

For me, I don't like tap chopping because I believe it's harder on the cutting edge due to the fact that you are throwing the knife's edge into the cutting board in the same manner as a drummer would strike his drum with a drumstick. I believe this repeated striking is much more abusive to the cutting edge when compared to either thrust cutting, push/pull cutting, or rock chopping.

I also believe that tap chopping is quite a bit more dangerous than thrust cutting or rock chopping because it is much less controlled and one sympathetic movement could result in the blade being lifted too high and taking a knuckle off. It's like telling someone to scribble as fast as they can to color in a circle but to stay within the circle and not color outside the lines. The faster you scribble to color in the circle, the more likely you are to unintentionally go outside the lines-- same thing with tap chopping. It's called sympathetic muscle/wrist movements.

Furthermore, I find that people who tap chop tend to have far less consistently sized cuts than those who use an albeit slightly slower, yet more controlled method of cutting such as rock chopping or thrust cutting.

Also, just speaking from a physics standpoint, knives cut most efficiently when moving in two directions at once (i.e. Down and forward or backwards) which creates a slicing motion. Tap chopping cuts only using a downward motion in a straight push-cut. This is less efficient.

Tap chopping is also not very effective when cutting through taller thick veg like large onions or squash, etc. which usually leads to "wasted cuts" that don't fully cut all the way through the food leaving them linked together because users are chopping too fast and don't make sure every cut severs completely through the medium. Once again, a result of too much speed combined with an inefficient cutting method. JMHO of course. YMMV. =)

Once you get into jks more alot of your views/opinions may change. There is some major holes in your opinions/theories, at least, when it comes to japanese or high end western makers. I dont mean it in mean way. If you are using German knifes, alot of this would be pretty right on. But japanese knives are different. They have different capabalities. Thats one reason why so many get obsessed with them. My two small pieces of advice would be to get a softer cutting board or at least move away from the poly board, and be prepared to move away from alot of rock chopping. With the fine edges of japanese knives rock chopping is probably the hardest on them. Im not saying it cant be done, its just perhaps, the technique to potentianly be most abusive on the edges. Again, im not saying it cant be done. Technique choices are personal and there is not neccesarily right and wrong on some of these things, but there are some generalities.

[lsboogy]

I'm with Cutuu - but I find straight up chopping very good on some ingredients (I do zucchini with straight chopping most of the time). There are uses for every cutting stroke, and I find myself doing pull cuts on soft veg and proteins, push cuts on hard veg, and rocking with fine herbs. I chop potatoes or rock them.

The notion you ruin edges chopping is a technique thing - my knives have been damaged more by an individual who twists them while rocking and push cutting than anything else in recent memory. I chop with aplomb on my end grain boards and the edges keep going - even on thinned knives with 9 degree per side angle. If you cut straight down you will not damage edges with a decent board.

[DSchwemin]

I'm with Cutuu - but I find straight up chopping very good on some ingredients (I do zucchini with straight chopping most of the time). There are uses for every cutting stroke, and I find myself doing pull cuts on soft veg and proteins, push cuts on hard veg, and rocking with fine herbs. I chop potatoes or rock them.

The notion you ruin edges chopping is a technique thing - my knives have been damaged more by an individual who twists them while rocking and push cutting than anything else in recent memory. I chop with aplomb on my end grain boards and the edges keep going - even on thinned knives with 9 degree per side angle. If you cut straight down you will not damage edges with a decent board.

Cutuu- I may have misspoke slightly when I said straight chopping was bad for knives. I didn't mean to imply that it causes damage to the blade necessarily, but rather that straight chopping would dull your knife the fastest. Cutting techniques that utilize slicing motions will always be gentler on your edge than straight chopping. Anytime you are striking something with a blade (i.e. the cutting board when straight chopping) as opposed to slicing, you are going to cause that edge to break down faster.

But like you said, cutting techniques are personal and at the end of the day, most people probably end up using a combination of various cutting techniques depending on what items they're cutting. I prefer to rock whenever it's practical, but there are also lots of times where I may have to push/pull cut depending on when I'm cutting.

[Cutuu]

I'm with Cutuu - but I find straight up chopping very good on some ingredients (I do zucchini with straight chopping most of the time). There are uses for every cutting stroke, and I find myself doing pull cuts on soft veg and proteins, push cuts on hard veg, and rocking with fine herbs. I chop potatoes or rock them.

The notion you ruin edges chopping is a technique thing - my knives have been damaged more by an individual who twists them while rocking and push cutting than anything else in recent memory. I chop with aplomb on my end grain boards and the edges keep going - even on thinned knives with 9 degree per side angle. If you cut straight down you will not damage edges with a decent board.

Cutuu- I may have misspoke slightly when I said straight chopping was bad for knives. I didn't mean to imply that it causes damage to the blade necessarily, but rather that straight chopping would dull your knife the fastest. Cutting techniques that utilize slicing motions will always be gentler on your edge than straight chopping. Anytime you are striking something with a blade (i.e. the cutting board when straight chopping) as opposed to slicing, you are going to cause that edge to break down faster.

But like you said, cutting techniques are personal and at the end of the day, most people probably end up using a combination of various cutting techniques depending on what items they're cutting. I prefer to rock whenever it's practical, but there are also lots of times where I may have to push/pull cut depending on when I'm cutting.

I think you will find push/pull to become more of your go to as you get into jks. The reason i said rock chopping can be rough, is because with rock chopping you are more likely to use the tip to stabilize. Putting pressure on a fine japanese tip will lend itself more to possiblly tipping the knife. Also, when people rock chop they tend to walk the blade, which can put lateral pressure on the edge that is usually better to avoid. German knifes tend to have coarser edges and lack the edge retention of japanese knife, so rocking through a product allows you to cut through better. But with japanese knives that are more refined sharpness you can chop(go straight down) effectively. Also they have the edge retention to do this. Plus, when you get technique down, you arent slamming the blade into the cutting board , rather using enough force to go through the product and sort of tapping tge board, but letting off before the edge is crammed into the board. I pretty much rock herbs, thats basically it. Also rocking to mince garlic at times depending on knife.

[lsboogy]

Cutuu - I still find rocking to be a choice often, especially with delicate stuff like herbs. You need a different profile to rock than most cuts - long sweeping belly that allows you to get up on the tip. I grew up with Sabatiers (the KS profile starting to become prevalent in Japanese knives) and learned to rock chop before any other cutting motion. I still start the next gen with rocking (knife skills class that I give when the kids get their first J knives) - you just need to care for the tip. I have seen more damage to my knives from "professionals" rocking than anything else - there is a technique to it, but it's something easy to teach and emulate. I generally buy the neices and nephew Tojiro color series knives when the get out of college, and spend a morning or two with them mostly rock chopping - none have damaged their knives. Straight chopping is also a technique thing, but a good pull cut is something I rarely see even in a professional environment.
Bottom line to me is that any cutting technique requires practice to do correctly, I had a line cook damage a knife by twisting a blade while push cutting- any cut motion is effective when done precisely, and all need to be used at times. A knife you are used to and can use well is all that's required - but J knives tend to be better than most, but a CHII will play with any Japanese maker. It's profile, grind, steel, balance, and othe things that make a knife. We live in a world of high end knives, and our expectations lend toward high performance.

[jbart65]

German knifes tend to have coarser edges and lack the edge retention of Japanese knife, so rocking through a product allows you to cut through better. But with Japanese knives that are more refined sharpness you can chop(go straight down) effectively. Also they have the edge retention to do this. Plus, when you get technique down, you aren't slamming the blade into the cutting board , rather using enough force to go through the product and sort of tapping the board, but letting off before the edge is crammed into the board. I pretty much rock herbs, that's basically it.

Ditto. I said something similar in an earlier post. The edge retention of Japanese knives is such that they don't dull very quickly in the hands of a skilled user who chops with finesse. My bigger problem is my knives don't get dull enough fast enough for me to sharpen more regularly!

Pushing and pulling will allow an edge to last longer, but it's simply not an issue for home users and, from what I gather, most pro cooks.

I still do rock on herbs and a few other things from time to time, but that's about it.

[DSchwemin]

Cutuu - I still find rocking to be a choice often, especially with delicate stuff like herbs. You need a different profile to rock than most cuts - long sweeping belly that allows you to get up on the tip. I grew up with Sabatiers (the KS profile starting to become prevalent in Japanese knives) and learned to rock chop before any other cutting motion. I still start the next gen with rocking (knife skills class that I give when the kids get their first J knives) - you just need to care for the tip. I have seen more damage to my knives from "professionals" rocking than anything else - there is a technique to it, but it's something easy to teach and emulate. I generally buy the neices and nephew Tojiro color series knives when the get out of college, and spend a morning or two with them mostly rock chopping - none have damaged their knives. Straight chopping is also a technique thing, but a good pull cut is something I rarely see even in a professional environment.
Bottom line to me is that any cutting technique requires practice to do correctly, I had a line cook damage a knife by twisting a blade while push cutting- any cut motion is effective when done precisely, and all need to be used at times. A knife you are used to and can use well is all that's required - but J knives tend to be better than most, but a CHII will play with any Japanese maker. It's profile, grind, steel, balance, and othe things that make a knife. We live in a world of high end knives, and our expectations lend toward high performance.

What do you mean by CHII? I'm not familiar with the acronym.

[Cutuu]

Cutuu - I still find rocking to be a choice often, especially with delicate stuff like herbs. You need a different profile to rock than most cuts - long sweeping belly that allows you to get up on the tip. I grew up with Sabatiers (the KS profile starting to become prevalent in Japanese knives) and learned to rock chop before any other cutting motion. I still start the next gen with rocking (knife skills class that I give when the kids get their first J knives) - you just need to care for the tip. I have seen more damage to my knives from "professionals" rocking than anything else - there is a technique to it, but it's something easy to teach and emulate. I generally buy the neices and nephew Tojiro color series knives when the get out of college, and spend a morning or two with them mostly rock chopping - none have damaged their knives. Straight chopping is also a technique thing, but a good pull cut is something I rarely see even in a professional environment.
Bottom line to me is that any cutting technique requires practice to do correctly, I had a line cook damage a knife by twisting a blade while push cutting- any cut motion is effective when done precisely, and all need to be used at times. A knife you are used to and can use well is all that's required - but J knives tend to be better than most, but a CHII will play with any Japanese maker. It's profile, grind, steel, balance, and othe things that make a knife. We live in a world of high end knives, and our expectations lend toward high performance.

@isoboogy, it could seem as if your saying that im saying rock chopping and rocking is not a technique, or its an un useful one. I am not suggesting that. And when you speak of a large dramitically sweeping profile that is more common among german knifes, although japanese knives obviously vary and plenty have profiles with higher tips and curvy profiles. Ive already mentioned that i still rock herbs. What im doing is challenging the op to enter into japanese knives with an open mind. They can be quite different from german or french knives. Its the old saying that you cant teach an old dog new tricks. If the op has a hard philosphy about knives that he created based upon his experience with german or french knives and ignores the difference between them and japanese or other "high end" ie. Western knife makers, he could miss out on alot of the things japanese and "high end" knives are capable of. He could even end up damaging one in the learning process, which is obviously ok. Its one way to learn. I was attempting to give him a diffetent perspective, rather than, preaching a mandatory technique.

[Drewski]

What do you mean by CHII? I'm not familiar with the acronym.

Carter Hopkins
https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewforum.php?f=25
@cartercutlery on Instagram

[Carter]

What do you mean by CHII? I'm not familiar with the acronym.

Carter Hopkins
https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/viewforum.php?f=25
@cartercutlery on Instagram

This is the proper Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/cii_bladeworks/

Facebook is below my signature.

Carter