Need Help Choosing B/twn TekedaNAS-ClvSm & SGMT #6 OR #7 -- or, maybe something else -- or mebbe nothing?

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jnuncus1@yahoo.com
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Need Help Choosing B/twn TekedaNAS-ClvSm & SGMT #6 OR #7 -- or, maybe something else -- or mebbe nothing?

Post by jnuncus1@yahoo.com »

Dear Folk:


Need Help Choosing B/twn TakedaNAS-ClvSm & SGMT #6 OR #7 -- or, maybe something else -- or mebbe nothing?

A. What Japanese made Chinese cleaver knife with which to "replace" current Chinese cleaver knife?

B. FOLLOW-ON QUESTIONS:

1. Sugimotos and Takedas:

a. Sugimoto #6 vs. #7? The difference???;

b. Takeda vs. Sugimoto? The difference???

2. Which sharpening stones to purchase in order to maintain the replacement cleaver knife? What combination of stone grids should I use? 400, 1000, 4000????? OR 400, 1000, 6000????? OR what? Can I do it with a simple front and back stone (two grids)?

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A. THE KNIFE QUESTIONNAIRE:
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First, the "questionaire:"

1) Pro or home cook? Semi-pro "home" chef/cook. Depends upon with whom you inquire. Some would tell you, "he cooks pro;" others would describe me as a really good "home chef." I am admittedly "weak" in "finished stages timing" -- i.e., co-ordination of the finished meal for the assembly of diners. I am very strong in individual dish making. "Making it all come together," however, on the table, is my biggest problem/challenge -- good, mother/wife/housewife cooks, sometimes just leave me in the dust on this "timing/co-ordination" skill set.

2) What kind of knife do you want? Good to High quality Chinese Cleaver knife to replace, or augment, the rather low-end, all-purpose, "peasant-style," Chinese cleaver knife that I now have and have been using for "everything" for about 20 years. - a really good quality Chinese cleaver knife that will hold up under heavy and varied use and stress, be capable of being very sharp, will be versatile, and will hold an edge for a reasonable time.

In addition, I am looking for a cleaver knife that has at least the same all-around, functionality and usefulness as an all around kitchen tool as the cleaver knife (the "ARTIFACT") I now have (which, see below, is a crude, but brilliantly all-around servicable "tool"); I do not know if a higher end cleaver knife can do what a traditional, "peasant," Chinese cleaver knife can do (maybe the higher end, "sharper" Japanese steel cleaver knives are too brittle for "smashing" garlic or ginger???); and that is one of the reasons I thought it would be wise to ask for help on the forum in selecting the best knife for "me."

NOTE: I am NOT here referring to a "bone chopping meat cleaver" when I use the word, "cleaver;" I am referring to a Chinese "cleaver knife" that Chinese chefs and cooks typically use as the Asian equivalent of a Western European chef's knife.

3) What size knife do you want? (approx.) ~210mm to 220mm (~8.26" to ~8.66") Blade LENGTH x ~110mm (~4.33" - ~4 1/2") Blade WIDTH ; ~3 to 4 mm THICK spine; Weight - 12.4oz to 15.8 oz. (all approximations). My impression is that the dimension preferences that I am expressing fall into the "small" or "home chef," categories. I have absolutely no need, to my knowledge, of a "large," commercial grade, Chinese chef knife; plus, as I enter my seventies, when eyesight is not so sharp as it once was, "control" and "controllability" in cleaver knife usage are becoming more and more important.

4) How much do you want to spend? Basically, no more than I should pay in order to obtain the most perfect knife for "me," personally. By the same token, I do NOT want to get ahead of myself and "overbuy" into something that I DON'T need. I am not considering, for example, any super expensive custom-made cleavers.

In other words, I am not looking for "bragging rights" here; I am looking for the most "UTILITARIAN"/practical Chinese cleaver knife for "me" to use in preparing my food and for preparing dinner guests' food. I am looking for a replacement knife for my current Chinese cleaver knife -- which, at present, for the most part, does "everything," cleaver-wise, for me.

5) Do you prefer stainless or reactive carbon or a combination? No preference; I am not really knowledgeable enough about the "steels," to pretend that I can make a personal decision, unassisted, based solely and only, upon the "steel." My understanding is that both stainless or powder based stainless and reactive carbon, or a combination, assuming high quality, are all about equally good.

As a practical matter, however, I have in fact been using a very high carbon steel Chinese cleaver knife, as my most used kitchen knife, since 1986 and am thus used to oiling and "maintaining" and "honing" a high carbon steel cleaver knife for each use. This is a non-issue for me; "maintaining" reactive carbon steel is no big deal for me.

I am, however, really not knowledgeabe enough about the "steels," and the practical and technical differences between the various "steels" to pretend that I could make an independant decision, on my own, without some guidance, as to which cleaver knife to purchase based upon the "steel" from which the knife has been forged. I just want a really "good one" (Chinese style cleaver knife), that's all.

6) Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle? This, too, is a non-issue for me; my current Chinese cleaver knife (the "ARTIFACT") certainly has NO "western handle" on it. I would not, however, turn around for the difference between a "western" handle and an "Asian/Eastern/Oriental" handle. If the handle "fits" and "works," use it. As described below, two of my knives are "Western (a Wustoff and a Sabatier), and two of them are Oriental/Asian (the two cleaver knives)."

7) What are your main knife/knives now? My main knife/knives - and my ONLY knives - are as follows:

A. Sabatier - 3 and 7/8" PARING knife ("Western" handle)(stainless steel);

B. Wustoff 5 1/2" BONING knife (Ikon series)(recent addition to my "kit")("Western" handle)(stainless steel) - am still learning how to use it;

C. DALAS (made in Taiwan) very thin blade, RECTANGULAR slicer, Chinese style vegetable and meat slicer (8" Long X 3 and 1/8" Wide)("Eastern" Handle)(stainless steel)(I think it is a "push-cutter" type). I purchaed this cleaver knife at the Da Hua Chinese Hardware store in Washington, D.C.'s then Chinatown in 1986 for $25.00; and

D. The no-name-no-brand, affectionately named the "ARTIFACT": 8" Long x 4 and 1/2 inch Wide and approximately 1/4 " thick at the top of the spine, which rises upwards from tang to front like a ski jump. ("Eastern," round, handle)(high carbon). Weighs about 1 1/2 lb. I pretty much use this knife for "Everything," and, as I have gotten better with it over the years, I hardly use the DALAS slicer at all any longer: there is, at this point, nothing I can do with the DALAS slicer knife that I cannot actually do, and faster, with the larger, and much heavier, "ARTIFACT."

I purchased the ARTIFACT at the Da Hua Chinese Hardware store, located at that time above Da Hua Grocery in Washington, D.C.'s then Chinatown, in 1986, for the princely sum of $6.50 (at the time, I naively thought it was a "meat cleaver," which it is NOT). It looks like something that is from an archaeological dig on exhibit at the Smithsonian Museum; but although it predates our current, super modern China, and was probably forged by some poor coolie chained to a post in a hovel somewhere in the countryside, it is in fact so sharp it will shave stiff whiskers DRY from a man's face! The "old-timey steel" is incredible: once you get it sharpened and finished, with some judicious honing with an ordinary honing rod, you can, with simple honing, keep that razor sharp edge going from anywhere from 1 to 4 months before you need to put it on the whetstone again. That cleaver knife just gives one a continuing appreciation for an incredibly advanced civilization of 4,000 or 5,000 years ago; think how long - how many milllenia - it must have taken to figure out how to create this tool in the first place....

8) Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair? Good to "approaching" excellent, depending on what you want me to do. Can I use the ARTIFACT to carve delicate water flowers out of radishes? NO!!! ABSOLUTELY NOT!! AND that's "NOT" a skill I want to master with a Chinese cleaver knife. Can I use the razor sharp "ARTIFACT" to slice meat and vegetables, or ginger, or daikon radish, or carrot translucently thin such that you can to some extent actually see through the sliced pieces? YES. Am I as "speedy" as a real, professional Chinese chef? OF COURSE NOT (but I am "close"); but I continually work on chopping faster. Knife skills are "relative," however; I am constantly working to acquire new skills that might be required for new dishes I learn and to improve old skills.

9) Are you a rocker, chopper, or push cutter? All three of them, depending on what it is I am required to do with the cleaver knife to get the job done -- e.g., you most likely are going to need to "chop" (or mince-chop) things like parsley and other fresh herbs; you are probably wise to "rock" through meat for stir, or pan, fry; and you have to "push" oftentimes to get things like scallions (spring onions), or other vegetables, cut up paper thin. Also do roll cut and "straw cut:" you know, just typical slicing stuff.

10) Do you know how to sharpen? Yes, I do; I've been sharpening knives since I was 7 years old.

I can always sharpen and hone a knife to pass the newspaper test; but I cannot pass the toilet paper/kleenex tissue test.

11) How are you using this knife - i.e., the ARTIFACT????? It is my chef's knife; it is the "GoTo" knife for just about everything that does not require a paring knife, or, now, a boning knife (which I have recently added to the repertoire). Shredding, chopping, cross-cutting, slicing, mincing, dicing, food; scoop food, smashing and peeling and mincing garlic, flattening out scallopini (pork or veal) with flat of blade, roll cutting, dicing, EVERYTHING.

12) Are you right handed? I am right-handed.

13) Do you prefer damascus or other decorative cladding or would you prefer a clean look? Clean look. This knife will be USED; I will NOT be showcasing or showboating the knife. Of course it is always a plus for the knife to be attractive. As to any "decorative" cladding, however, my understanding is that the real Damascus steels have all been LOST in the historical, millenial, soup. I am absolutely UNINTERESTED in cosmetic knockoffs of true Damascus steel; "cladding" is completely uninteresting to me because it really contributes nothing to the utility of the knife.

14) What kind of cutting board are you using? Currently, I am using a nylon or soft plastic, I am not sure which it is, cutting board - it does not,however, seem to dull the blades. I will, in all likelihood, be switching back to wood -- presumably maple or perhaps bamboo, maybe a thick wooden butcher block type. Nothing "hard" that would either break, or unduly dull, a sharp edge.

15) Are you doing a lot of prep or is this a line knife or something else? Assume the knife will be used for "everything:" prep, line work, slicing, pounding. It will be used for "home-based" chef and cook work. It might be used to butcher a deer or a goat or dress and bone a chicken or a turkey or a goose or cut up a squirrel or a rabbit. I probably will not attempt to use it to attempt to change a flat tire on an automobile.

So, there you have it: I am wanting to upgrade at this point. My simple research has led me to consider either the SGMT#6 OR #7 OR the Takeda Stainless Clad Cleaver Small Item #: TakedaNAS-CleaverSm; those could be good conclusions on my part, or they could be stupid conclusions on my part: I don't know.

I used the ancient Chinese cleaver (the "ARTIFACT") more or less as a long-term experiment as in "what would it be like if I soley and only used a 4,000 year old, peasant style, Chinese cleaver knife paradigm to prepare food?" RESULTS, after 20 years: IT WORKS! The Chinese are an absolutely amazing people.


B. FOLLOW ON QUESTIONS:
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1. Sugimotos and Takedas:

a. Sugimoto #6 vs. #7? The difference???;

What is the difference between the Sugimoto #6 and the #7? My own, layman's, impression is that the Sugimoto #7 is the heavier and more robust of the two and is the more "all around" knife. What relative characteristics of the two models would make a "pro" chef decide to use one as opposed to the other? The product descriptions do not really explain the difference. Keep in mind, the knife I purchase will be used for pretty much for "everything;" it will NOT be a "specialized" knife that, for example, is only used to slice vegetables.

b. Takeda vs. Sugimoto.

How does Takeda stack up against Sugimoto as a general matter? Would a Takeda "small" (any steel) perform the same functions as a Sugimoto #7? For example, if I try to smash a garlic clove with a Takeda, am I going to end up with $600.00 worth of junk in the dumpster?


Second, my understanding is that, at least in Japan, 70% of professional chefs use Sugimoto cleaver knives. Is there any particular reason or knife characteristic that Sugimoto is so popular among the Japanese pros? Why aren't they all buying Takeda, or one of the other elite brands? The price differential between Takedas and Sugimotos is not significant enough (about $100.00 at most) to be determinative among "pros" who pursue their economic livelihoods as chefs, cooks, etc., and who make their livelihoods using chef grade cleaver knives.

2. Which sharpening stones to purchase in order to maintain the replacement? What combination of stone grids should I use? 400, 1000, 4000????? OR 400, 1000, 6000????? OR what? Can I do it with a simple front and back stone (two grids)? I am almost completely lost on which stones to acquire.

My understanding is that one needs to acquire "3" stones: rough, sharpen, and finish/polish (and some folk add a leather strop at the end for ultra gleaming polishing). The numbers, however, are all over the place.

I have enclosed a picture of the ARTIFACT, not just for grins but also to show you what I have been using.

Finally, I apologise for all the spilled ink; BUT (a) I love to cook, or otherwise 'make' food; and 95% of 'making food' is "knifework." So, you have to love your knives; and, you have to make sure that they love you. And, I certainly appreciate any advice you can give me. :-)

Thank you for your advice,

Nuncus
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salemj
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Re: Need Help Choosing B/twn TekedaNAS-ClvSm & SGMT #6 OR #7 -- or, maybe something else -- or mebbe nothing?

Post by salemj »

Hi Nuncus,

I enjoyed your post. I own a Takeda knife (not a cleaver), and I do NOT use cleavers. But I do think I can perhaps offer a little moral support.

Let me sum up your post:
1) You want a cleaver.
2) You want a cleaver that is no-nonsense, gets the job done, and cuts with serious control.
3) You want good steel that holds a sharp, steep edge and can be easily maintained without too much fuss.
4) You want to treat the cleaver as a tool that does everything a knife should do and more...but one that you affectionately love.

Given that you provide three options, I'd go with the Sugimoto #6.

Here's why:
-Your current cleaver is heavy and brutal. Get something that contrasts. The #6 will contrast more than the #7.
-A Takeda does not necessarily need to be babied or anything, but it is a unique tool that would require an adjustment...and they tend to be very light for the size. I see no reason for you to buy or own a Takeda. I think the no-nonsense style and aesthetic of the Sugimoto is far more fitting to your preferences. Takeda's steel is really terrific, but it is slightly more delicate, lighter, has a finish that will wear, is not as much to your "style" as you describe above, and still cuts a bit strangely when compared to the kind of thin cleavers that Sugimoto provides. It is also probably a little more demanding when it comes to sharpening and honing. Why bother?
-You are already comfortable with a reactive blade. The Takeda finish and stainless will save you nothing.

Now, if, for some totally crazy reason, you wanted something other than a cleaver, then I can see how a Takeda gyuto might be in the mix. But at your age, why bother? Get the Sugimoto and be forever happy.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Need Help Choosing B/twn TekedaNAS-ClvSm & SGMT #6 OR #7 -- or, maybe something else -- or mebbe nothing?

Post by gladius »

I'd agree with a #6, you will have plenty of power with this one pound beast. I've also had a number of Takeda's and too recommend Sugimoto over Takeda.

I like mine allot but admit I use the smaller #30 more unless I need the additional size (210mm). I prefer the 190mm for most daily tasks and this in a home environment. I also occasionally use my Misono and CCK 1303 but mostly the Sugimotos get the call: very high quality.

Both the carbon and stainless Sugimotos take a very fine edge and benefit from such. They simply drop so effortlessly through most product at a 1 micron polished edge. They are both easy to sharpen too so most stone offerings will do just fine.
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Re: Need Help Choosing B/twn TekedaNAS-ClvSm & SGMT #6 OR #7 -- or, maybe something else -- or mebbe nothing?

Post by dAviD »

I happened to get lucky months ago and picked up a Sugimoto OMS #7.
It is a thick heavy bastard.
But it also works wonderfully.
I just spent a month using it as my only knife at work.
On everything. Tomatoes, cabbage, chicken, green onions..as a personal challenge of sorts.

I even diced 100lbs of sweet potatoes with it last week and it wasn't wedging unless they were huge.
The OMS is supposed to be the highest grade/crafted knife they make.
but like all hand crafted knifes and especially mine it needed a bit of sharping and thinning behind the edge to perform at a better level. It had over grinds and the fit and finish where good but no where near a Takeda.
Out of the box edge was good but after using it and sharping it's way better and opening up nicely.
The only thing that makes me nervous is water getting into the handle but as long as your careful it's not a big deal.

But....
If I get the chance I'll be picking up a #6 from them also because it will most likely be the ideal weight and thickness. I'd skip the OMS version, save a chunk of money get a regular one. Of all the knives I own it definitely works great but it also is a tool more than art.
Most cleavers start ugly and develop into a beat up beautiful creature.

Takeda knives are excellent.
And I have no doubt that it's worth the price tag but...
they are curvy and I know for my taste that would annoy me unless I slow down and adjust my technique.
And I'm a huge Takeda fanboy so I'll most likely get a large version down the road to own,
But for a workhorse it's the Sugimoto.

As for sharping it been using the red brick almost exclusively for the #7 and then I use a felt deburring block and strop it on an old leather strap.

Other knives I tend to use more stones but that setup gives we a wonderful edge with little to no work.
If I need to hone it at work for whatever reason I use a 6k.
But mostly the Sugimoto seems to hold a great edge and really only needs to be touched up once a week give or take.

I've taken it to higher stones but there's no point with that much weight behind the edge even dull it cuts great.

Either one is a winner though.
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Re: Need Help Choosing B/twn TekedaNAS-ClvSm & SGMT #6 OR #7 -- or, maybe something else -- or mebbe nothing?

Post by Dmiller »

I got a #6 a few weeks ago and I really enjoy it a lot, so it's something that I would recommend although my only other cleaver experience is a small CCK
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