Looking for my Nakiri (or Bunka)

[Altadan]

Hey fellows,

So after racking my brain (and eyes, and wife) over this site for the past two weeks, and after having watched every Steve G. video twice over... I figured it's time I asked the forums

1) I'm a Home cook
2)I want a Nakiri (or possibly a veggie-bunka, with enough chopping-flatness)
3) 160-170 is fine
4)I can afford up to 200$, max.
5) I want a carbon steel, but a stainless-clad is alright too (KU finish is desirable, for aesthetic reasons, but not a must).
6)Japanese handle please.
7)I use a Shun Premier 210 chef, a Zwilling Twin Polux 7" chef, and some odd paring knives.
8)Knife skills are good.
9)With the two chef knives I've mostly rocked and pushed. I've recently started chopping, and realized that outside of the Shun (which they strongly recommend you don't!) none of my other knives is thin enough to chop easily.
10)I know how to sharpen.

Most of everything I cook involves onion, and there's no lack of carrots and tomatoes. Hence I've been looking to add a nifty vegetable knife for quicker, more satisfying work. Now, I know you will not judge me for this, but I must admit I am looking not only for a well performing knife, but for a pretty one, too Something with some nice kanji showing (not the zakuri), and that would stand out from all the other stainless knives I've got hanging on the magnet.

I've been looking at:
-=-=-Nakiris-=-=-
Shiro Kamo AS Nakiri 160mm
Kato AS Nakiri 165mm
Yahiko White #2 Kurouchi Nakiri 165mm
Anryu Kurouchi Damascus Nakiri 165mm
-=-=-Bunkas-=-=-
Anryu Blue #2 Bunka 170mm
Goko White #1 Bunka 170mm
Ogata White #2 Bunka 165mm
Masakage Yuki Bunka 170mm
Kurosaki AS Bunka 165mm

I'm sure I'm overlooking half a dozen others! There are so many!
Thank you all for taking the time to write from the wealth of your experience!
Dan

[SteveG]

Welcome Dan and thanks for watching all the QL videos.

The first knife that came to mind, even before I saw your list is the Shiro Kamo AS Nakiri.

I also like the Anryu KU, Kurosaki KU, and Ogata KU for you as well. If you want a little extra visual interest the Anryu/Ogata have the Suminagashi cladding, which looks pretty cool when it gets a patina.

Personally, if performance is important, I'd would favor the Kamo KU. Considering the Shun Premier is very good performing knife, I think you'll be happy with the Kamo.

For your situation, I'd go Nakiri and skip the Bunka for now.

[Altadan]

Steve,

Thanks for the quick reply and recommendations.
Could you say anything more that you haven't covered in the vids about those recommendations?
How would the Shiro Kamo compare to the Anryu, the one being AS and the other White #2?

Also - I will take your advice on skipping (for now) the bunka blades - could you tell me why skip the bunkas?

Dan

[desol]

I would buy and use the Kamo AS in a heartbeat. In. a. heartbeat. Look at that great choil shot? Aogami super! Nice height! Nice handle! Wide bevel...

Needs to be wiped and dried after use...and occasionally cleaned(imo).

Thing will fall through things. Not much else a guy could want in a Nakiri.

[SteveG]

Every individual knife can vary a bit, but in general IMO the Kamo AS will outperform the Anryu W#2. AS will have higher edge retention, while still being pretty easy to sharpen, but W#2 will be even easier to sharpen.

I would skip a Bunka for now because based on the knives you own, a Nakiri will be more of a different experience vs. a Bunka. Plus, it sounds like a Nakiri is what you're really interested in trying.

[Altadan]

I think you got me
I'll reply back after I've made the purchase and tried it out for a while. Thanks for your insight.

Dan

[SteveG]

Cool. Enjoy the knife.

[Altadan]

This question has been rattling in my skull;

What makes a knife (steel, HRC, grind? etc) better or worse suited for chopping?
I'm concerned after having chopped some finer brunoise carrots with my Shun premier chef, and having some micro-chips and little dents that don't just hone-away

Dan

[jmcnelly85]

There's countless factors that contribute to chipping during chopping, all of the factors you've listed play a role in the manner. In my experience, the biggest contributor is user dependent. Let's say two people share a week with the same knife. Person A may have sharpened to a steep angle yet uses a light hand while chopping and experiences no chipping, that person could easily justify the knife as not being all that chippy; however, give heavy handed person b the same knife with even a more obtuse angle they still might chip it. Furthermore, if the same knife continues with just touch ups alone, the steel can become fatigued and turn chip prone, it's an ongoing process where everything from the product, the board, the knife, who sharpened the knife, when it was sharpened, the steel used, how well it was treated when it was forged, who did what to it after if was forged, the technique of the user, and even storage habits all play their part among infinite other factors.

Fwiw, I take very little stock in hearing other people call certain knives chippy. As long as the knife was made properly there's a way to maximize the knife to the user.

[jbart65]

Some of my knives get microchips over time, but they are exceedingly small and rarely hurt overall performance until I sharpen again.

The best nakiri I have used is the Masakage Yuki. Taller than most, but easy to hold and manuever. Gets extremely sharp and sharpens super easily. Great chopper. It will get tiny microchips if used sloppily on hard squash, but it's like a guillotine with most product. Even when I got microchips it performed as if it had none.

I am reluctant to characterize any knife as chippy, but my experience with steel is that Blue #2 is the least chippy. Ginsan and R2 are pretty good. White is more chippy, imo, but again, the chips are tiny and performance is rarely affected. I own more knives in white steel than any other steel. I love how sharp it gets and how easily it sharpens.

Among other nakiris, the Kamo AS would be a great choice and for stainless the Kanehiro ginsan. Lots of great choices here.

[Altadan]

Welcome Dan and thanks for watching all the QL videos.

The first knife that came to mind, even before I saw your list is the Shiro Kamo AS Nakiri.

I also like the Anryu KU, Kurosaki KU, and Ogata KU for you as well. If you want a little extra visual interest the Anryu/Ogata have the Suminagashi cladding, which looks pretty cool when it gets a patina.

Personally, if performance is important, I'd would favor the Kamo KU. Considering the Shun Premier is very good performing knife, I think you'll be happy with the Kamo.

For your situation, I'd go Nakiri and skip the Bunka for now.

Alright,
So after a few weeks with the knife I can definitely say there are some things I'm very pleased with, while keeping room for improvement.
Over my time here on the forum, reading through some very informative threads by the different cooks n' cutters who post here, I've come to appreciate my Shun premiere all the more (surprising as it may be, ha!)
It's beautifully crafted, tapers super thin at the edge, and really does preform very well - especially when it comes to dicing onions after a few parallel cuts.
That being said, it's also a hefty knife with a hefty handle, and a generous belly without much real flat.

Enter the Shrio Kamo AS KU - also beautifully crafted (if a little rustic), very light, with its weight forward leaning.
I've had the pleasure of making my mother's (and great-grandmother's) traditional holiday dish this week (Tbigh - pronounced Tbee'ch) which involves a big pot, chuck roast, tomatoes, red wine, and about a dozen red-onion.
The onions are to be juliened, and this is where the kamo really shined - just give it some momentum, and tac-tac-tac it goes through all dozen of those in no time - and no tears!

On the other hand, when it comes to preforming horizontal cuts on an onion, and then moving to dice it, I find that the Kamo wedges somewhat in both directions. This is due, I expect, to the nakiri's shape in the front\tip. There is no tip, and so there is no distal taper either, and hence, there's a little bit of wedging.

I suppose you can't have it all,
but then again, I wonder if a flatter bunka would not have been the rout for me.
I am currently thinking of either trying to sharpen the front of the nakiri (has anyone ever done that?), or of offering it on the classifieds.

[Lepus]

The additional height on the tip of a nakiri does unfortunately tend to keep the tip relatively thick. The knife is fighting physics in those cuts. A bunka isn't going to be that much better. If you want a thin tip, one to shoot through onions, it's a gyuto.

If your issue with the Shun is the handle weight, sell the Shiro Kamo and replace it with a Takamura R2 210mm gyuto. Nothing will beat it for an onion and the handle is only partial tang, uncommon for a Western but quite light.

[jbart65]

Some nakiris definitely struggle a bit on horizontals, but not all of them. My aforementioned Yuki had little issue. My current Kochi 180 is less adept.

Best knife I've used for onions is my 240 Koishi gyuto. On horizontals it's almost as if nothing is there. Another great one was my Yahiko Shimo 210.

[Altadan]

Thanks for the replies, guys.

In a way, the Shiro Kamo and my Shun 8" complement one another fine.
The former is great at chopping - which is really what I wanted - it looks nice, and every now and then the patina gives off some interesting shade of purple or blue.
The latter is stainless, and big, and will take care of dicing them onions, and taking care of all manner of things when I don't feel like wiping a knife dry.

It's not perfect, and I really do think I'd rather have one knife to do it all (a light, flat, 210 gyuto - that wouldn't break the bank, but would still be something to look at).
I realized, through this buying experience, that I really can't use more than one (maaaaaybe two) knife at a time, and that beyond having a paring and a do-all knife, I don't much else (I don't deal with boning).
In any case, what DOES it take to sell a knife on the classifieds? Just a paypal account and some good photos?

[SteveG]

In any case, what DOES it take to sell a knife on the classifieds? Just a paypal account and some good photos?

Yes, PayPal is really the easiest way to conduct a classifieds transaction. Take some good photos, showing any pertinent wear & tear (or lack thereof) and you're set.