Nakiri of my dreams. Or, of my budget?

[rna_freakout]

1)Pro or home cook? Home.

2)What kind of knife do you want? Nakiri.

3) What size knife do you want? 165-175mm x 48-55mm, 5-6oz.

4)How much do you want to spend? $135 hard maximum.

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction? Leaning towards carbon core, and open to suggestions on cladding.

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle? Japanese.

7)What are your main knife/knives now? A Shibazi S208-1 (9x3.75" Chinese cleaver), and a Victorinox 7" santoku.

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair? Fair.

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter? Push/pull, and chop, and looking to chop more.

10)Do you know how to sharpen? Yes.

My new kitchen is less than ideal for cooking from scratch. When making smaller meals, I often find it easier to let food accrue on my cutting board and its table, than to keep the board free enough to maneuver my cleaver (what is this, "spare counter space," that you speak of?). That itself isn't so bad, but for not liking any of the smaller knives I have. The listed santoku is the least bad, but it's too light, has too much belly, and I have no need or want for a pointy tip.

While I don't want something so reactive that I can't cut some tomatoes or apples without off colors or flavors, having to bring out a different knife for citrus would be fine. I'd prefer going with carbon, so long as it isn't too reactive.

Sharpening is why I'd like to avoid short ones. I don't see myself being able continue to comfortably use one past about 45mm, and I assume that I'm going to sharpen it down by a few mm. I'm open to tall ones. I simply don't know whether 55mm would be better or worse than one close to 50mm, or how to speculatively judge that.

I don't mind having to do a little touching up on an edge, or oiling a handle, but I would like the fit and finish to be good enough that I can start using it pretty much right away. Some of what I've read about Tojiro consistency makes me a bit leery, for example. As well, a slick handle would be a huge negative.

As a home user, I'm more likely to accidentally cause chips through my own error than to wear the edge down, when it comes to reaching the point where I need to sharpen. So, really hard ones that keep an acute edge very well won't be of as much use to me as those that are a little more forgiving, and I have a feeling that all of them will have good enough edge retention for my needs.

With all those caveats, my limited knowledge still leaves me with too many choices. The list below is of those that I keep going back to, and is approximately in order of least tempting to most tempting (except for the first, which I want to get out of the way).

Kohetsu SLD Nakiri 165mm: generally looks good, but on account of being highly allergic to oak, I don't even want to give a chance.
Tanaka Kurouchi Nakiri 165mm: generally looks good, and is very well-priced. But, the reviews make me wonder if it's not too hard/brittle of a knife for my current cutting and sharpening abilities.
Shin Saku Blue #2 Nakiri 170mm: tall and heavy, but probably not too much so. I can't find much more on it than what is in the description, however.
Kajiwara Kurouchi Nakiri 165mm: seems like a very well balanced bigger one, with good reviews. Very tempting.
Kohetsu Blue #2 Nashiji Nakiri 165mm: based on info and reviews, it looks like it would be Goldilock's choice of knife for preparing the base of some bear stew. But, does that make it best option, or just a good looking set of compromises? Very tempting.

[Cutuu]

The matsubura white nakiri im selling seems to fit your requests. Ive touched up the rough spots so its comfortable. Its a really great all around nakiri. If you are going to use one as your main knife it will perform through all kinds of product greatly. The height is just about 50mm, according to cktg specs. I can measure if u want. An interesting thing also about the matsubura is it has an awesome distal taper. Alot of nakiris dont. The distal taper alows it to be thin near the tip and fly through onions and other type of horizontal cuts that might be sluggish with others. Im keeping my shig nakiri over my matsubura, because of the steel( also its somewhat rare)and i like the shig better on some ingredients that i might be more likely to bust out a nakiri for. But im not using my nakiri as a daily driver. If i were, my matsubura would be way better.

[Chefcallari]

Hey,

I own the tanaka KU b2 and I love that nakiri.
Its honestly the last nakiri I'll ever buy. Now Im not a nakiri guy, but I use that nakiri in a professional kitchen and murder produce with it... Never ever had even so much as a micro chip. Its thin but the grind is really good so it has almost no sticking issues.
Tanaka make some of the best knives out there and his KU line is just a steal for the money.

[mauichef]

The matsubura white nakiri im selling seems to fit your requests. Ive touched up the rough spots so its comfortable. Its a really great all around nakiri. If you are going to use one as your main knife it will perform through all kinds of product greatly. The height is just about 50mm, according to cktg specs. I can measure if u want. An interesting thing also about the matsubura is it has an awesome distal taper. Alot of nakiris dont. The distal taper alows it to be thin near the tip and fly through onions and other type of horizontal cuts that might be sluggish with others. Im keeping my shig nakiri over my matsubura, because of the steel( also its somewhat rare)and i like the shig better on some ingredients that i might be more likely to bust out a nakiri for. But im not using my nakiri as a daily driver. If i were, my matsubura would be way better.

+1.
As soon as i saw your post Thought about this knife for you.
It's a great deal on a great knife!

[Kit Craft]

I have the Tanaka, Tojiro and Kohetsu but in santoku form. They are all comparable in performance but all different in ways. The Tojiro and Tanaka are both fully reactive and some of the more reactive knives I have ever used. They are both wide bevel knives but the Tanaka has a more defined Shinogi and a much cleaner grind. The Tanaka out classes the Tojiro in every way. I am a total Tojiro fan boy but the Tanaka is a better knife. The Kohetsu seems like a wide bevel but it has even less definition than the Tojiro however it has a cleaner grind. It has a less abrupt shoulder than both the Tojiro and the Tanaka. It also has better F&F than both knives and is stainless clad.

Between those three knives the performance is on par from knife to knife, in my opinion, with no huge differences. The difference is in fit and finish and of course stainless cladding on one of the three. Edge retention on the Kohetsu and Tanaka are noticeably better than the Tojiro and they sharpen almost as easily.

I have no idea how the nakiri in either of these lines performs but if it is anything like the santoku then I don't see there being any concern with any of them.

[Lepus]

I'd take Cutuu's Matsubara, no question. I've almost bought it myself but I have something very similar already.

[rna_freakout]

I have the Tanaka, Tojiro and Kohetsu but in santoku form. They are all comparable in performance but all different in ways. The Tojiro and Tanaka are both fully reactive and some of the more reactive knives I have ever used. They are both wide bevel knives but the Tanaka has a more defined Shinogi and a much cleaner grind. The Tanaka out classes the Tojiro in every way. I am a total Tojiro fan boy but the Tanaka is a better knife. The Kohetsu seems like a wide bevel but it has even less definition than the Tojiro however it has a cleaner grind. It has a less abrupt shoulder than both the Tojiro and the Tanaka. It also has better F&F than both knives and is stainless clad.

Between those three knives the performance is on par from knife to knife, in my opinion, with no huge differences. The difference is in fit and finish and of course stainless cladding on one of the three. Edge retention on the Kohetsu and Tanaka are noticeably better than the Tojiro and they sharpen almost as easily.

I have no idea how the nakiri in either of these lines performs but if it is anything like the santoku then I don't see there being any concern with any of them.

Assuming similar traits transfer over, and Cutuu's is sold, that definitely makes me lean towards the Tanaka, plus Chefcallari's recommendation. Once that's confirmed, I'll bite (and maybe throw in a stone, or strop, too)

[jbart65]

Curious why the Gihei is not under consideration. It's $135, and though I love Tanakas, the Gihei would be my easy first choice at your price point.

Okay, just 47 mm tall. But these knives are so sharp it should be a long time before you knock off several mm. Most of the time the knife will only need touchups here and there. Blue steel that stays sharp for quite a while and can be brought back to life quickly. Ask for the tallest one CKTG has when you buy.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2na16.html

If tall is what you want, though, I'd save my money for a little longer and get a Yuki ($185). Best dang nakiri I have used and it's almost 60mm tall.

[Kit Craft]

Curious why the Gihei is not under consideration. It's $135, and though I love Tanakas, the Gihei would be my easy first choice at your price point.

Okay, just 47 mm tall. But these knives are so sharp it should be a long time before you knock off several mm. Most of the time the knife will only need touchups here and there. Blue steel that stays sharp for quite a while and can be brought back to life quickly. Ask for the tallest one CKTG has when you buy.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2na16.html

If tall is what you want, though, I'd save my money for a little longer and get a Yuki ($185). Best dang nakiri I have used and it's almost 60mm tall.

Still your top? Didn't you order a Kochi? I figured that might take the spot the way everyone talks about them. Sorry, a bit off topic.

The Gihei is a good suggestion too. I still like my Santoku but I always forget about it because I have other Sanjo knives that I prefer, in my collection.

[rna_freakout]

Curious why the Gihei is not under consideration. It's $135, and though I love Tanakas, the Gihei would be my easy first choice at your price point.

Okay, just 47 mm tall. But these knives are so sharp it should be a long time before you knock off several mm. Most of the time the knife will only need touchups here and there. Blue steel that stays sharp for quite a while and can be brought back to life quickly. Ask for the tallest one CKTG has when you buy.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2na16.html

I did consider it, but set a low bound on height. By somewhere around 44mm, I reckon I'll be seriously risking tapping the board with my fingertips, and that could happen at a taller height, like 46-47mm, if I get proficient enough to quickly chop. It's not wearing the edge I'm worried about, but being an idiot and getting a big chip in it. I don't know how my cleaver compares to some of these knives in terms of brittleness, but I've yet to need to sharpen it due to feeling dull. It's doing something that I could have avoided in hindsight, and chipping the edge, that determines my sharpening schedule. But, lacking sufficient foresight to avoid whatever those things will be, I'm going to assume that I will keep doing such things, on an unpredictable and only occasional basis. I try not to, but...

If tall is what you want, though, I'd save my money for a little longer and get a Yuki ($185). Best dang nakiri I have used and it's almost 60mm tall.

That I really don't know. 55mm seemed a normal high end of the heights, with the Yamashin and Shin Saku being about that (the Shin Saku would be worth making a display case knife block for, too), but that limit was arbitrary. In addition, I've been more worried about making a bad first choice, in my ignorance, than to necessarily have the best. I didn't plan on basically stopping with a low priced Chinese cleaver for years, for that matter, but it clicked. As a result, while I feel confident in the type of knife I want, confident that I can learn to sharpen it OK, and confident in some other of the properties of them (like that 190mm would be too long), I don't have the necessary experience with good knives in this size range to figure it all out, and that includes whether to go with a more normal height one, or taller one.

As to the budget, it gets way too easy to spend a little more, then a little more, then a little more... . I also figure that it will be prudent to include a couple stones, so I don't want to blow everything on the knife. My cleaver can likely take a bit finer edge than I give it, but never seemed worth the effort, getting an edge that's better than I need from a cheap 600/2k combo plus 1k King to cow leather w/ 1u BC to unloaded horse leather, with wobbly hands. I'm just not so confounded by the selection of available abrasives as I am knives.

[jbart65]

As to the budget, it gets way too easy to spend a little more, then a little more, then a little more... . I also figure that it will be prudent to include a couple stones, so I don't want to blow everything on the knife ... I'm just not so confounded by the selection of available abrasives as I am knives.

I understand. I started at CKTG nearly two years ago with a 240 PS60 gyuto and a 210 Takamura R2. And I thought I was spending a lot! That was thousands of dollars ago (bought and sold). (-:

However ... I did learn through all my purchases that I would have been better off spending a bit more and getting into the sweet spot. For 240 gyutos, it's between $250 and $300.

For nakiris, it's between $150 and $200. Some of the nakiris in that range are a clear step up from the ones you are looking at in materials, fit and finish and performance. Of the less expensive nakiris, the Gihei is the one that truly punches above its weight.

Aside from the Yuki (OOS), I'd also recommend the Kanehiro ginsan ($200). I own the santoku version and it's fantastic. The Yahiko nashiji ($185) or kurouchi ($175) are also terrific. Ditto for the Kurosaki AS ($190).

If you go with a cheaper brand, I'd take the Tanaka VG10 or Damascus over the KU. The Shiro Kamo AS and Ittu Ryu are standouts at the $150 price point. For $10 more the Ikeda AS should not be overlooked. Great steel, not too reactive.

In short, for a little more money you can take a big step up.

[gladius]

Greetings and welcome to the forum!

Have you considered a small cleaver upgrade? If your budget is really arbitrary, an alternative would be a Sugimoto Cleaver #30 at $165 (currently OOS but routinely stocked - email Mark). It would be a serious upgrade to the $40 Shibazi and performs at or better than most of the nakiri's you are considering. I have many nakiri's from some of the best smith's but find the performance from my Sugimoto #6 and #30 are preferred. The #30 I reach for most of the everyday tasks at home and the #6 for serious prep. Both get seriously sharp and hold an edge an insanely long time - the heat treat is very well done.

Sugimoto Cleaver #30
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/sugimoto-cleaver.html

[rna_freakout]

However ... I did learn through all my purchases that I would have been better off spending a bit more and getting into the sweet spot.

On the other hand, by then, you also knew more of what you actually wanted in that sweet spot, no?

If I start to get used to it, over some weeks or months, and get into thinking, "I like it, but it might be nicer if...," I could be motivated to spend more on another one. While I'm having a hard time figuring out where to start, I don't mind if it's just a start, so long as it's a good start for me.

[rna_freakout]

Greetings and welcome to the forum!

Have you considered a small cleaver upgrade? If your budget is really arbitrary, an alternative would be a Sugimoto Cleaver #30 at $165 (currently OOS but routinely stocked - email Mark). It would be a serious upgrade to the $40 Shibazi and performs at or better than most of the nakiri's you are considering. I have many nakiri's from some of the best smith's but find the performance from my Sugimoto #6 and #30 are preferred. The #30 I reach for most of the everyday tasks at home and the #6 for serious prep. Both get seriously sharp and hold an edge an insanely long time - the heat treat is very well done.

Sugimoto Cleaver #30
http://www.chefknivestogo.com/sugimoto-cleaver.html

It would have to be the #6, for a closer size. A Shibazi S208-2, and CCK 1303, don't handle so well, while the S208-1 feels like it was custom sized and balanced just for me. I've considered one higher-end, before, but haven't really wanted it. What I have is enough of a joy to use that I'd rather not spend so much money on something so frivolous as a fancier kitchen knife (that money would be best put towards a limited run flashlight ).

That said, right now, I'm trying to maximize board space used for food, instead of keeping the clearance for the cleaver. That works, and saves me some pointless walking around between surfaces, with plates or bowls of ingredients going to and from the cutting board (I moved for the location, not the well thought out kitchen). But, it's not fun, with that santoku being the least worst of my middle size knives.

[jbart65]

Still your top? Didn't you order a Kochi? I figured that might take the spot the way everyone talks about them. Sorry, a bit off topic.

The Yuki is still the best nakiri I have used, but the Kochi 180 made it clear to me i prefer 180s.

As for the Kochi, I think I need to sharpen once myself before I truly judge it. I like it so far, but I wouldn't say I love it. Thin at the edge but thicker in the middle compared to the Yuki. It's heft helps to power through ingredients, though.

[Kit Craft]

Still your top? Didn't you order a Kochi? I figured that might take the spot the way everyone talks about them. Sorry, a bit off topic.

The Yuki is still the best nakiri I have used, but the Kochi 180 made it clear to me i prefer 180s.

As for the Kochi, I think I need to sharpen once myself before I truly judge it. I like it so far, but I wouldn't say I love it. Thin at the edge but thicker in the middle compared to the Yuki. It's heft helps to power through ingredients, though.

Thank you for the update. Sounds like one I would like but I am not sure I like the two that I have now. I thinking maybe a nakiri just ins't my thing.

[jbart65]

Nakiris are an acquired taste. I use mine a few times a week, but only when prepping for vegetable-laden stir fries. Tonite I made eggplant in garlic sauce. Used my Kochi to cut up eggplant, bell pepper, onion, garlic, ginger and scallions. Lot of chopping and dicing.

I gave the Kochi a good go on my Meara jnat beforehand and she handled even better. No problem on onion horizontals. Good for smashing garlic and ginger.

I seldom use nakiris for European style cooking or anything that involves lots of proteins or herbs.Can't beat a gyuto for versatility.

[rna_freakout]

Now I'm looking at the OOS Masakage Yuki listings around the web .

I mostly slice and dice vegetables, don't cut bone-in meats when making food (just to divide large cuts right after purchasing, for freezing), haven't minced anything more than a little bit of garlic, ginger, or turmeric in ages, and am perfectly OK using soft-steel beaters for oddballs like avocado. I don't foresee any herb problems. I've got no arguments against the limitations of the form, except that I personally don't see myself running into them often. Like the cleavers, what they seem to be poor at are the kinds of things I might be doing once every couple of weeks, if even that.

[Kit Craft]

You might give some thought to a Kato AS (Kintaro) or Kanehiro AS. They are done by the same maker and I have found his grinds across most lines to be fairly consistent. Not quite as tall as the Yuki but close.

[Chefspence]

What about the Matsubara tall nakiri in the new arrivals?