Two 240 gyutos

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erbw02
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Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2017 11:33 am

Two 240 gyutos

Post by erbw02 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 3:58 pm

Hi,

been hanging around the forum for awhile and love the insightful discussions and in-depth reviews that can be found here. Truly grateful for the opportunity to learn from all you knife fanatics :geek:

This is my first post, I'm looking to buy 2 new glutes ... gyutos (for some reason my computer insists on correcting gyutos to glutes but I'm not looking for 2 new glutes...) and I thought I'd ask you for some advice. Details below, please ask if you need any additional information. Would love some discussion to see some discussion! Thank you!!

Rgds,
e

1)Pro or home cook?
Retired pro. Now only cook at home and on some rare occasions for parties/friends

2)What kind of knife do you want? (Gyuto, Santuko, Petty, Paring, Sujihiki, etc.)
Looking for two gyutos:
- One that could teach me the definition of laser. Something that flies through prep like it's nothing. But it has to have some feedback, needs to feel alive and like it has at least a little personality. Probably has some flex. Guessing this is something like a Kono HD2.
- One with a little more heft and a lot more personality. That knife that is always right. The one knife that you can bring on travels or when friends ask you to come over and cook and feel like you have everything you'll ever need. Probably quite stiff. Guessing this is something like a Mizuno Tanrenjo Hontanren or a Takayuki Ginsan Damascus.

3) What size knife do you want?
240-ish. Have owned a couple of 210s and I never truly enjoyed them, they made me feel week... I find the 270 Yuki to be a bit to much in a lot of circumstances but the Hinoura and the Oatley feels just right.

4)How much do you want to spend?
anything/nothing, depending on recs

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?
most knives I have are fully reactive and I like that. I like the way you have to care for them as if they were family. I enjoy that they are demanding. I love the way they feel on the stones and the edge they take. But I have never truly given "stainless" a fair chance, have only ever owned soulless (in my opinion) stainless knives like globals and such, but hear a lot of good things about ginsan for example and would be willing to try it out.

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?
Japanese, no frills

7)What are your main knife/knives now?
- Masakage Yuki Gyuto 270 mm
Love this knife. The first true japanese knife i got and it was a mind-blowing experience. Think it takes and holds a great edge, food realise is good, I like the feedback and just the general feel of this knife. Only complaint is that the 270 is a little too much steel for me. Not way much, but too much non the less.

- CCK Chinese Chef Large
Fun to play with every now and then but that's about it.

- Hinoura Ajikataya 240 mm
Beautiful knife. like the weight and the size of this one, feels just right in that regard. But for some reason the feedback it gives doesn't appeal to me. Can't really explain it but it feels "dead".

- Oatley Knives "Kiritsuke" 250 mm
250 mm white #2 honyaki laaaaser. This knife is crazy thin and performs like nothing else I've ever tired, completely flat belly, great chopper, alot of width and very nice knuckle clearance, feedback is great, lot of flex which i kinda like and kinda don't like. But she's also super delicate (especially the tip) and impossible to replace so I worry a lot about her. Not an everyday knife...

- Masamoto KS Yanagiba 300 mm
My first single bevel. This was my absolute dream knife when I got it, still is. Learned to sharpen single bevels on this one. Cried the first time I tried cause I made a mess of everything :D

- Takayuki Ginryu Kensaki Yanagiba 300 mm
- Masamoto KK Deba 210 mm
- small heap of noname petties

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?
excellent

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?
Switch between different techniques depending on situation and mood. Nothing beats chopping like a madman every now and then though so would not consider a knife without a good flat part

10)Do you know how to sharpen?
yes

jmcnelly85
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by jmcnelly85 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:59 pm

For the massive one, you need a Gihei 240 blue 2 gyuto.

Chefspence
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by Chefspence » Thu Sep 28, 2017 6:12 pm

jmcnelly85 wrote:
Thu Sep 28, 2017 4:59 pm
For the massive one, you need a Gihei 240 blue 2 gyuto.
Second!

I like the Konosuke w2 for a laser that's fully reactive

Radar53
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by Radar53 » Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:10 pm

Hi There erb & welcome to the forum.

Disclaimer first - I've only been into JK's for about three years & just as a home boi with pretty average knife skills.

I'll let others suggest the workhorse but thought I'd throw a couple of suggestions at you given that you talked about being open both lasers & stainless. First up would be the Konosuke Swedish <http://www.chefknivestogo.com/kohdwa24.html> check out Steve's video and there's even one of them in stock!! The second is the Shibata Kashima <http://www.chefknivestogo.com/shckex24gy.html> R2 PM steel & check out the comments & reviews here <viewtopic.php?f=13&t=2144>.

I have them both & love them both, but man to me that Kashima is something from a parallel universe. Just something to think about.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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jbart65
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by jbart65 » Fri Sep 29, 2017 12:29 pm

Gosh, so many options.

The laser solution is simple. The Kono Swedish to which Radar linked. Same shape, grind as the HD. I've got a Kono petty in the same steel. Acts much like ginsan, which acts much like White #1. I was shocked at how easy it sharpened and how sharp it gets. Custom handle gives more personality - the stock handle is plain vanilla.

I've actually been considering selling my Kono White #1 with blonde ferrule to pick up the Kono Swedish instead. So don't wait long. (-:

For the other, the Gihei is a very good bet. Other options that come to mind include the aforementioned Takayuki, Kanehiro AS, Kamo AS, Ikeda AS and Yoshimune W#1.

The Gihei, Ikeda, Kamo and Yoshi are the better choppers of the bunch. The Kanehiro has a bit more rounded profile. The Takayuki is in between.

My single best knife - my most versatile - is my semi-custom handled Tanaka Sekiso Damascus. Curvier than most J knives, but with just a slightly adjustment it pushes and chops quite well. Stiff, tall, nice tip, good convex grind. Steel gets keenly sharp and holds an edge awhile. Plenty tough, too.

I can handle any cuisine and any cutting style with this baby.

Downsides? Mediocre stock handle. Fairly reactive iron cladding. Maker inconsistency - some complain of thicker grinds. But anyone who's gotten a good version of this knife has gotten a ... great knife.
Jeffry B

delmar
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by delmar » Fri Sep 29, 2017 4:33 pm

Laser is a term that gets thrown around a bit without much firm definition. Attributes may include thin at spine, light, dextrous, thin into and at the edge, etc. HD2 is the quintessential example, and has at those attributes. Kono Swedish, White, and GS. Kikuichi Swedish Warakomi another (and a looker if that is a desire). Takeda. Shibata. There's more, that's just what comes to mind. Some of those are out of stock.

I have found most mono-steel stainless to have muted feel. Given that, IIWM, I'd lean towards the carbon offerings (Kono White and Takeda) or perhaps a semi-stainless. If are looking for something in stock now, I'd lean towards a Takeda or Kono Swedish. The Takedas have been pretty divisive in their design (really tall), but their newer Sasanoha offerings offer a 'standard' height offering. Big investment and you need to read up on sharpening them (not hard, just need to familiarize yourself with the technique), but oh so worth it.

For an everyday knife that can travel, it would come down to budget for me. If you are in the 200-250 range, a bunch of offerings. But quality all arounds that are well loved by most on the forums, the Anryu Hammered and Gihei Blue #2 come to mind. Both excel are nearly every task. Something with more flat spot and nimble tip, might want to check out the classic french profile section in 'gyutos'. In White, the Goko is tried and tested, with a rustic finish. I also really liked my brief time with the Yoshimune White #1. Yuki another favorite. Either offering in Kamo (the R2 in particular is stellar). I've been playing around with a Tanaka Ginsan and Sekiso, and have been super impressed with the quality of the grinds on the knives - they do have a rustic handle and need help on fit and finish (but can find offerings on internet that come with upgraded handles and fit and finish issues resolved by the retailer). I do believe that the Tanaka is superior to the Sukenari in ginsan, which I consider quite the compliment.

erbw02
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by erbw02 » Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:59 pm

First and foremost: Thank you very much for all the insightful comments. The laser part seems easy, the second knife seems almost impossible. Some thoughts:

Lasers
Some type of Kono just feels like the way to go here. But I think spontaneously that I'm craving an HD2 or a white one. I feel insecure about it in Swedish steel, I have never tried it so I obviously don’t know, it’s just the way I feel.

Regarding the shibata kashima I do not know anything about it but I have tried Shibata Kotetsu and did not like it. It may well have been because of k-shape but uncertain. Feels scary to take the risk unless the Kashima differs very much from the kotetsu. How is R2 to work with? Radar: Can you develop the idea that it is from a parallel universe? ;-)

Have not seen so many previous recommendations about kikuichin and feel no real need for the knife that looks fancy... I find myself being more attracted to knives with a rough, purposeful look.

Takeda
I have mixed feelings regarding Takeda, I don’t really understand what kind of knife it is. Is it a laser? No, not really or maybe. Is it the one-and-done knife? Doesn’t seem to be ...? Is it a knife that is extremely robust? no it does not really seem to be that either. So what's is it then? And then are the rumours about not so nice grinds every now and then.

On the other hand the food release ability seems outstanding, and they are attractive in some mysterious way. I have this feeling that I have to own a Takeda some day. Preferably, the non-cladding version. Is there a big difference in performance? I also don’t have a problem with it being a very tall knife.

The "always right" knife.
Gihei, exciting knife, lots of great reviews and many on the forum seem to like it. Hadn’t thought about it before. Great tip!

Then we have the Tanaka which also seems to have many followers! Very exciting alternative! The maker inconsistencies you mention jbart makes me a bit nervous. In the same way as with the takeda as above. Feels scary to buy a knife with well known production inconsistencies.

Then I'm still craving both the Mizuno and the Takayuki. The Toyama appeared as another interesting alternative. And the aforementioned Kanehiro, Kamo, Ikeda and Yoshimune. Crazy amount of goodies to choose from. I’m appealed primarily by those with a slightly simpler appearance.

So where does that leave me??

Laser: kono hd2 or white seems like an obvious choice, if I ever manage to get hold of one. Could maybe maybe consider the kashima.
Always right: Gihei, Tanaka, Mizuno, Takayuki, Toyama and possibly a few more. Seems impossible to make a choice.
Wildcard: Takeda

erbw02
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by erbw02 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:22 am

Okay so been reading a bunch of reviews, so a few more questions... =)

1) Kashima seems amazing, can you compare it to the Kono HD2 & W lasers? What are the biggest differences?
2) Takeda intrigues me more and more, do I need to worry about the variance in grinds I keep hearing about? Will the non cladding 240s ever get back in stock?
3) Does the Tanaka have too much of a rocker profile for someone who almost never does any rocking?
4) The Matsubara Nashiji? Also seems like a sweet all-rounder? Any comments?

I’m in no hurry, can wait for all of these as long as I know they will get back in stock eventually...

erbw02
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by erbw02 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:58 am

Any thoughts?

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jbart65
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by jbart65 » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:56 am

I can only speak on the Tanaka. It is an excellent rocker, but more often than not I push cut and chop with it. Just need to add some minor thrust forward.

I don't rock much, but I like the Tanaka so much in part because it handles herbs better than any of my other J knives.

On Lasers: Havent used the Kashima, but it's tend to be a bit oversized. Keep that in mind when choosing between it and a Kono. They tend to run true or a bit shorter than list.
Jeffry B

Lepus
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by Lepus » Fri Oct 06, 2017 12:59 pm

Regarding Takeda grinds, I would suggest you read the following topic: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2331

I think it offers a pretty honest assessment of the Takeda grind situation. I have a Takeda Sasanoha 210mm and it's one of only two knives I own that I would replace exactly if lost or stolen.

I have a Kashima and prefer it to any Sakai laser, of which I have tried the Konosuke, the Ginga, and the Yusuke. The grinds are similar and I really like the profile and the steel of the Kashima. It has more length and less heel height than a Konosuke, very much in a Sabatier style, and R2 is a great go to for lots of use; you may be out, but I'm still in. They're all fairly similar in hand, though, and while I haven't used one the Kotetsu sounds and reads a lot like the Kashima. I expect the only big difference is the profile. If the Kotetsu bothered you because the tip was too low, a Konosuke would be the solution, but if you didn't like how it moves through food or how food sticks, I'm afraid you would dislike most "classic" lasers. None of them have what I would call a great flat spot, nor do they have the weight that makes chopping so fun. The Sakai knives usually aren't quite large enough to fit a large flat heel and the Kashima's is adequate for say shallots but problematic for onions.

milkbaby
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by milkbaby » Fri Oct 06, 2017 1:58 pm

Takeda stopped making the carbon clad Aogami Super or "classic AS" knives and only makes the "NAS" new stainless clad Aogami Super. I haven't read that there is any difference in the quality of heat treat on the core AS steel either way. All his gyutos are clad, no monosteel/honyaki.

I think you have some tough choices as I would've guessed that your Oatley would fulfill the laser slot and Hinoura the all rounder. But everybody's preferences and experiences are different.

Chefspence
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by Chefspence » Fri Oct 06, 2017 8:01 pm

I've only used one Takeda, 210 gyuto stainless, I would never sell, and would replace easily. It's one of a kind and I would suggest it to anyone home or pro. I use in a pro env. I've used the Kono w2 and just bought the hd. I found the food release to be far better than I expected on the w2. I can attest that both profiles on the Kono and the Takeda don't exclude them from chopping. As stated, add a slight forward motion and you'll be fine. Two of my best experiences in prepping have been from these two knives. I love the Gihei b2 as well. I would seriously consider any of these knives for you, but to with what you want. They are three very different, but will offer great experiences for you. The Takeda will singularly blow your mind when it comes to food release. I wrote a topic about it called, "Takeda magic" in the general discussion section, with pics. The Gihei is initially so weight forward that it seems awkward, but it slices through steak better than the Kono laser given the extra weight. It's all in what you want. Hope this helps. Good luck. Btw, just get one and if you don't like it, sell it and get another. Gotta support your own addiction :)

erbw02
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by erbw02 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:25 am

Hey thanks for great input!

@milkbaby @chefspence your on point of course, these knives are very far from being knives I “need”. Especially since I’m a home cook these days. I would probably do fine with just the old Global I have l laying around somewhere. Call it a drug, a hobby, perhaps “an exploration of fine craftsmanship”. I just need more knives. Guessing you know the feeling. So the “just get one and if you don't like it, sell it and get another” attitude seems quite appropriate here. That was probably the advice I needed rather than the specifics on performance. Thanks!

That said...

@Lepus @Chefspence great input on the Takeda. Thanks for the link!
@milkbaby good to know that there’s no point in waiting for the classic one then!
@jbart65 thanks for the insight on the Tanaka. Actually made me cross it off the list. Perhaps not your point but I was valuable for me =)

Gihei, Takeda and Kono/Kashima (which ever I can get my hands on) now seems to top my list. The Mizuno and Takayuki still intrigues me though, any inputs on those compared to the Gihei would be much appreciated!

Cutuu
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by Cutuu » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:46 am

The takayuki ginsan ( non damascus) is phenomenal imho. Its very different from the gihei but shares charestic of heftier and sturdy. The takayuki is wonderfully convexed and cuts through all kinds of things beautifully. When i used to cut through tasso ham it glided through it like butter. I like it alot better than the gihie if i was to only have one of them, it would be an easy choice for me. The takayuki can put out some of the thinnest and cleanest cuts imaginable, yet ive had it over a year and haven't even put it through a full progression. I dont think i dropped below my meara. If i did it was once. Now its not my daily driver and lately its been chillin but its still seen plenty of action to be sharpened more. Ive had other knives with similiar action that would of needed multiple sharpenings. To me the takayuki is what the doi may evolve too. When u look at the spines and craftsmanship they r extremely similiar, atleast till about midway then they taper differently. They both also have that wonderful sturdy confident swag about them. But the takayuki backs it up with beautiful carefree cutting thst makes the weight always worth it. While as with the doi there would be some hicups in the cut or i felt i had to use more power. Its still a great knife but... Imo (get off topic for a second), if it were to smooth out a bit and cut like the takayuki in that ks style package, that would be an absolute must have never sale love of my knive. Anyways, the takayuki alot different from the gihie, twice as much, but i still find it worth it. Ebony handle that comes stock with it is beautiful. Since you seem like you already fallen down the rabbit hole, i think either one would be fun to have now and perhaps the other one later. But as for me im a huge takayuki ginsan fan
Last edited by Cutuu on Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:56 am, edited 1 time in total.

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jbart65
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by jbart65 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:50 am

Stick my old Global? Gosh. I could never go back to that. My wife had a Global santuko she adored, but only because she was not used to anything else.

I just had to get it out of my block. Sold on eBay for $50 and put it toward a Kanehiro ginsan santoku. Much better knife.

Globals are not bad. Like em better than older Wusthofs and Henckels, though not as much as MAC.

In any case, if the Tanaka is not for you, there are plenty of great knives available. I could never just have a few. Not anymore.

Ramon, one of these days I'm gonna get a Taka ginsan. I used the other version - helluva knife.
Jeffry B

Cutuu
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by Cutuu » Sat Oct 07, 2017 8:59 am

Jeff, one of these days im going to get a tanaka sekisko sounds like a really goody

erbw02
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Re: Two 240 gyutos

Post by erbw02 » Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:20 am

hehe okay okay maybe not the global ;-)

The Takayuki sounds amazing, thanks for the input! Don’t know much about the Doi, only reviews I’ve seen have been so so...you think it will be evolving a lot?

e

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