Gyuto upgrade

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Kit Craft
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:00 pm

Lepus wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 9:53 pm
It had a sizable lip from the handle to the ferrule, a recess where the handle was cut or chipped deeper than the ferrule line that I ended up sealing with a mixture of wood glue and sawdust, and extremely rough sanding work. The lip beneath the ferrule was rough enough to splinter.

If you got a good one, or even if Tanaka's handle supplier has gotten better in the past few years, that's great, but I did not and that's a fairly common experience. The knife is great and one hell of a bargain for the price, but of the dozen or so horn capped handles I've bought my Tanaka's was unquestionably the worst out of the box.
Damn, sounds like the handle on my last Tojiro minus the horn part. I guess I got lucky, thrice.

Cutuu
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Cutuu » Fri Oct 06, 2017 10:26 pm

Personally i would second the kanehiro AS. And i would recommend imo over the gihie as an all arounder. I would like to get a a gihie, great knife, but i like the kanehiro better. Ive heard the term goldilicks used for sukenari alot. I haven't used them so iwouldnt know, but to me the kanehiro is a Goldilocks. Its seems never too much or too Little.
Last edited by Cutuu on Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:24 am, edited 2 times in total.

Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan » Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:30 pm

I just wrote a long reply to all involved... and the session timed out :evil: :shock: :shock: :(

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jbart65
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by jbart65 » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:07 am

Lepus wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:09 pm
I thought about this overnight. I get wanting to have one knife that can do and be everything, but you're getting into particulars to a pretty extreme degree and you seem to want knives that excel in multiple ways. You are likely to the point it's going to be hard to get just one and be finished. Most of us have multiple knives, quite a few more than three, because we work in restaurants or have diverse diets and we want knives that aren't just adequate but rather amazing for any given task. For better and worse there is no one knife that we agree is just amazing at everything. I don't know if you're there yet, but you're certainly close.
I only quoted part of Lepus' last post, but it's all spot on. He offers great advice.

There really isn't any one knife that I could be fully satisfied with. Knowing what I know now, I'd need three or four.

Two years ago, I knew nothing about these kinds of Japanese knives. Once I got hooked, I bought or tried more than 50 J-knives. I've sold most, but still have 12 or so gyutos, a santoku, nakiri, petty and honesuki.

It may seem hard to believe, but so many of these knives have distinct personalities and characteristics that clearly separate them from others. Some do things that others can't quite do in the say way. Even very small differences can seem large to a discerning knife user.

Of course, I can do pretty much anything in the kitchen with one really good knife. But I've found that three really good J knives are what I need to cover all my bases.

My Tanaka, for example, is my best all rounder. But it's fully reactive and the tip can't produce radish slices as thin as, say, my Masakage Koishi. My Yoshimune has a magnificent tip and is stainless clad, but it's a weighty and pointy knife that is a touch unwieldy for certain small tasks. And neither is quite a good a chopper as my cherished Tetsuhiro Hammered or Yahiko 240.

Speaking of which, I would also recommend a 240 as chopper. Lepus is right about 210s. They aren't as well suited for major chopping sessions as a nakiri or a 240.

While I mostly use my larger knives and nakiri, I also use my Kono 150 petty and my wife's 170mm Kanehiro ginsan quite a bit for small and quick tasks. Hell, even got a cheap honesuki for breaking down chickens. Didn't need one, but it was just $60.

Anyway, one and done is more a fantasy than a reality. I've yet to try one knife that covers all the bases. The Masamoto KS comes close. The Kamo R2 might be even a better all rounder, but it's R2 steel and as good as it is, I wouldn't want just an R2 knife. The steel doesn't hit the board with the same metallic thud I like.

Tanaka has a stainless clad Blue #2 that might be in the offing too, though I haven't tried it.

Personally, I think you should plan on getting 2-3 knifes eventually. Try and buy, as I did. You essentially pay to rent but it's not only worth it, it's fun, if you have a little money to play around with.
Jeffry B

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Kit Craft
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Kit Craft » Sat Oct 07, 2017 9:47 am

I think a one and done is only a fantasy for us knife nuts. Even in that case, for many of us one knife is practical about 98% of the time. However, I agree that logically speaking 2-3 knives would be ideal. In fact, we have a thread on this exact subject that is quite recent. A medium small to medium gyuto and a medium small to small petty/paring seems to be the more prolific selection according to that particular pool of participants. Followed by a large gyuto and medium petty. Of course everything between also seems to exist but is less popular.

This one hits home for me. It has been my long term goal, to find that one knife that replaces a 2-3 knife setup and I just have not been able to do it. A 180mm gyuto comes damn close in that I can use it like a 150 petty of need be or a short suji, all the while tripling as a gyuto. Yet it is lacking when it comes to acting like a smaller petty, even if I choke up on it. A 165mm tall petty comes closer to the short end but loses it at the top end. I think my search is futile and I have give up on it in favor of a two knife system.

Realistically, for someone that actually likes to cook and does so with variety I must agree that at least two knives will make your life a hell of a lot easier. One of those knives can be a 5$ paring knife though...

Cutuu
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Cutuu » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:00 am

A more accurate statement is "one and begun" :lol:

Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:09 am

Alright,

I'll try to reply in order

Steve G,
I'm not sure I understand what you mean about my Shun premier being light and nimble. Are you referring to the blade only? Thickness, taper, and tip?
Also, what exactly do you mean by handling? I can say that the Shun, at 214g feels much better in a racket grip than in a pinch, where the handle weighs me back. The Kamo, as well as even the Zwilling, feel much better in the pinch, and that's what I prefer. A pinch balance, or slightly forward than that is ideal. Did I understand you correctly?

Robstreperous,
You've left me on a cliffhanger. Something that drops through food like air? :o Just say it!

Lepus, Jbart
I've been thinking overnight too :)
I fully appreciate what you're saying about the One Knife to Rule Them All, and that it is a futile quest. I've no trouble believing that each has a distinct personality, and that they are each worth trying out in turn. "Renting" them seems like a fine hobby, but I'm not there yet.
I am indeed still on the fence as to what to do with the Shun and Kamo. If I can find a knife that is just more... mmm.. go-to and handy, then I'll want to sell the Shun (is it welcome in the classifieds, or is it shunned there? sorry, that was corny). Selling the Kamo is more a budget issue than not wanting it. honestly, to a great degree it hinges on budget, and on magnet-strip space...

As far as 210's not having as much flat as the nakiri (165mm), I can't deny it. But I think I'd be willing to compromise on some flat real-estate for having more versatility in the one blade. Look, like you say (I'm afraid), I might just be that close to the point of (no return) beginning a journey of trying out and building a set of Japanese-knives-only that do amazing, each at their own specialty. But for now - grad-school and two little boys - I cannot afford to do so. Maybe I'll rejoin the crusade later in life, when there's peace in the Middle East, and Kono HD's are not so rare... In the meanwhile, whatever I choose to get will certainly be complemented by the Zwilling for whatever the other two are too thin\hard to handle, and the newly welcomed 170 Masutani (my wife wanted one :D :D ) as a thin, low-tipped santoku, as well as the rest of the paring knives we've got.

The Kanehiro? Goldilocks? How is that different or similar from, say, Sarena Williams?
It's pricey. Is it that much more knife than the Tanaka? Kurosaki? Yahiko? (remember, I'm at home, not in the restaurant). I wish there was a better vid for a close-up look on it.

plan on getting 2-3 knifes eventually.
Eventually. Ok. Perhaps the next in five-six years.

Jmcnelly85,
Thanks, that's helpful. Honestly, I've never handles a blade like that, and I'm curious - but again, the journey is not for now. When do you usually use yours? What sorta tasks?

That being said, I'm think I can say the list remains much of the same, except the Moritaka has been getting no to negative only responses (at least for build\handle). The Kotetsu is extra pricy, and the Ikeda... well, I wasn't convinced.

The Considerables (in not too particular order):
1. Yahiko - Flattest of the bunch, W#2, ssclad, topnotch grind
2. Tanaka - favored all-arounder
3. Kurosaki - all-arounder, but flatter than the tanaka, ssclad


One and begun. <sigh> This "one" will be the third already... :roll:

SteveG
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by SteveG » Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:56 am

I find your classification of the Gihei as a medium light weight interesting. What would be medium heavy and heavy? My Watanabe is a heavy in my mind, no questions asked but I don't remember the Gihei being much less beefy.
Well, I guess in hindsight the Gihei is more in the medium, maybe even medium/heavy for a 210 Wa Gyuto. I was just trying to get the OP to think about his preferences in relation to his Shun Premier.

@Dan, I meant that the Premier is more handle heavy, with a thin, pretty high performance blade, which results in nimble handling IMO despite the actual weight of the knife. Bringing the balance point forward will result in more perceived "mass" and chopping power as you're experiencing in the Kamo Nakiri.

If you plan on ditching the Kamo Nakiri, then I think the Tanaka might be to curvy for you.

Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:10 pm

I see now. Would you say it was nimble even when holding it at a pinch, when the handle is weighing in behind you?
I definitely prefer some more weight to the front, like in the Kamo nakiri.
Last edited by Altadan on Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Robstreperous
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Robstreperous » Sat Oct 07, 2017 12:26 pm

Altadan wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:09 am

Robstreperous,
You've left me on a cliffhanger. Something that drops through food like air? :o Just say it!
Pry your wallet open, spend the extra money, and get the Shibata. You won't regret it.

I haven't used any of the other knives so I can't compare but I've used two of Shibata-san's knives now and I'm pretty familiar with the Shun. Within about a week you will be using the Shibata for just about everything you're not using your nakiri for and your Shun will become your beater knife.

If nimble's what you want then that's it. Yes you'll need to pay attention to the K-Tip so as not to "tip" it into the board. Yes you'll have a little bit of an adjustment due to a continuously curved profile. Yes it requires some mindfulness and attention so as not to bang it against cans and other knives. To that I reply with one word (OK two):

Worth it.

Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:00 pm

Finally someone speaking up for the Kotetsu :)

Lepus
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Lepus » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:16 pm

In that light the Gihei looks better and better here. And in the interest of your budget, try this on for size:

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/mawh2gy21.html

Makoto Kurosaki is Yu Kurosaki's brother and apprenticed in the same shops in Echizen. The people who trained them are the same guys who are behind Kanehiro and Masakage. He is starting to ramp up his own brand and his work is priced lower than it probably should be. I haven't used it, so feel free to shop reviews, but a lot of people cite it as largely comparable to the other Echizen knives.

I do think the Kanehiro is a step up from the Kurosaki. It has more weight to it toward the tip and I think it's a little more aggressively ground. If you wanted to go big I still think you should reach for a Kanehiro, but I think a Gihei or the Makoto would work very well.

Whichever you decide, you should think about keeping your eyes on passarounds and perhaps even consider some trading. You can try quite a few knives for next to nothing if you're smart.

Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan » Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:27 pm

Lepus wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 1:16 pm

Whichever you decide, you should think about keeping your eyes on passarounds and perhaps even consider some trading. You can try quite a few knives for next to nothing if you're smart.
I like that idea, Lepus :)
Does anyone here live in Dallas?

How do these passarounds work? I was under the impression that only a few chefs, and other serial buyers were in on them. Am I wrong there?

you got me thinking about the 240 there... thanks, lepus.

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jbart65
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by jbart65 » Mon Oct 09, 2017 12:58 pm

Altadan wrote:
Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:09 am
But for now - grad-school and two little boys - I cannot afford to do so. Maybe I'll rejoin the crusade later in life, when there's peace in the Middle East, and Kono HD's are not so rare... In the meanwhile, whatever I choose to get will certainly be complemented by the Zwilling for whatever the other two are too thin\hard to handle,
Understood. "Eventually" means when you can afford it.

The Kanehiro is taller and has a touch more belly than, say, the Yahiko. But it has less belly than the Tanaka. Kanehiro makes fantastic knives. Hit all the bases, really. Excellent fit and finish too. I've tried the AS and own a Kanehiro ginsan santuko. Both are fantab.

You can chop with all of these knives, especially in the 240 versions. As Lepus said, few 210s can chop as well.

The only one I've come across that does is the no longer sold Gassan 210. It is oversized at about 220mm, has a flat profile and looks a bit like a large santoku. You could put a want to buy listing in the classifieds and see if it turns up. I almost sold mine last year, but fortunately there were no takers. Not great at rocking but it's my preferred 210.

Another value-priced knife I'd throw into the mix is the Tanaka ginsan. More svelte tip and a bit less belly than the Sekiso.

The Makoto is by all accounts a great value and it shares the profile of all the Takefu knives (Masakage-Kanehiro-Ikeda-Kurosaki-Yoshimi Kato). Good all-round profile, nice tip, light middleweight size.

Just keep in mind it's full reactive. I'd probably lean toward stainless clad, ginsan or even R2 if I were just getting one knife.
Jeffry B

Lepus
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Lepus » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:11 pm

You'd be welcome in a few passarounds even now. The barrier to entry is usually a fairly modest post count. You just need to be able to convince people to trust you with their knives. It's not a big deal if you're not an amazing sharpener, either. You can be slotted in between others so that sharpening is largely unnecessary.

Of course, if you break it, you bought it, but knives are pretty sturdy.

Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:54 pm

Well, thanks for the vote of confidence Jeffrey.
Is that an offer for a tryout on your Yahiko Nasiji? :mrgreen: I'm leaning in that direction (even more so after reading your longer review).

I'm pretty confident I won't be breaking any knives ;)

Altadan
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by Altadan » Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:53 am

Ok,

It's been a while, and I think I'm sick to my soul from trying to choose between a Tanaka and a Yahiko, which is what Ive come down to.
I know i cant choose wrong here, and I've come to realize I probably want both - but one of them will have to be first, and the other will have to wait for a a year or so...
so, which one first, and... :?
what size should I get of each, and... :x
I haven't yet decided about which Tanaka (for when the time comes) would be the better choice to complement the Yahiko :oops:
<sigh> :cry:
This shouldn't be this hard :(
if I were a richman... yada di di :roll:

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jbart65
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Re: Gyuto upgrade

Post by jbart65 » Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:31 am

I'd go with the Yuki for $185. Save $65 over the Yahiko for the same performance. Excellent knife.

If not that, I think anyone relying on one main knife at home should probably have a stainless clad and not fully reactive.
Jeffry B

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