So...I want another 240 Gyuto

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Kit Craft
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So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:38 pm

I know, I know, I am a 180 gyuto kind of guy and I have more than my share of them and have three of them on my Christmas list. I also plan on getting a 210 or two. :mrgreen: However, I do not think that I have given the 240 range a fair shake and a few posts by others have made me curious. It is hard for me to understand a line, let alone recommend it if I only ever try petty knife sized gyutos, which is really what I typically use a 180 as.

See, here is where we run into a problem. Often times a 210 and a 240 in the same line have their differences and sometimes those differences are huge. However, I feel that such things multiply when talking about a 180 vs a 240. Lets get down to business and get my likes and dislikes out of the way.

I am right handed, use a nice end grain board and could care less about the handle. I like mono carbon, mostly but am good with iron cladding or stainless cladding. I could do semi stainless or even a PM steel. Maybe even a stainless clad stainless. :o Most of you know all of this. :lol:

What I am looking for, really, not a true 240. I would like something along the lines of a 9 inch K-sab so around 225-230mm with a shortish heel height and a very point profile. I still prefer that suji type profile! That does not mean that I can not go with something that is 240-255, I can and will if ya'll think I should. Point is, I just want to try something different. However, I know my taste and I like pointy gyutos that work well as a slicer and such.

I know, anything with a KS profile is likely something I need to try...but I think if I go that route I might try to find a used KS...(I know, good luck) or the new Shibata...I mean, how can I go wrong there? :P

Another route is simply to go with a Misono Dragon in 240, which is closer to 250 and may not have a true sab profile but it will be a French profile in general. IE: Close enough.

So, my friends, what say you? What 240 is going to end my 180mm obsession?

PS: No lasers

Thanks!!

salemj
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by salemj » Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:51 pm

It is too bad. What you really need is an original KS. It is one of the few large knives that feels small and has a "real" pointed tip. The closest alternative I've seen is the Kono Funayuki-gyuto, I think. (I like pointy tips so I tend to remember.). There are a few others that are close, I guess. Sukenaris are not that far off.

Otherwise, I think you might try a Kono Ginsan. I bet you could do a lot with it. Mine is a super-laser, but I have seen several on the forum that were actually pretty far from lasers. They tend to run short, they are refined, they have good steel, but they also would be really fun for you to play with on the stones.

I realize this isn't carbon...but I don't think it matters. I see you getting lots of fun out of a Kono Ginsan. It may not be an amazing knife that will set you on 240s...but honestly, I don't think any knife will do that. More importantly, it will be fun, cut well, and will fit you basic desires (decent but no-frills handle, <230, shorter at the heel, good steel, delicate tip, if not exactly dagger-like, and full of potential).
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.

Robstreperous
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Robstreperous » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:09 pm

What I am looking for, really, not a true 240. I would like something along the lines of a 9 inch K-sab so around 225-230mm with a shortish heel height and a very point profile. I still prefer that suji type profile!
t I think if I go that route I might try to find a used KS...(I know, good luck) or the new Shibata...I mean, how can I go wrong there? :P
PS: No lasers
That's how. The Shibata is a true laser. Kit, even though I'm in a passionate love affair with my Kashima I'm not sure it's for you. I love the R2 and it's sharpened pretty nicely but.... from all your stuff I've read wouldn't you really have a nice carbon to sharpen?

So... honesty, based on what you've written I think what you're lookingfor is a Doi. I'm enjoying mine very much right now. Still getting used to it. Right profile for what you wrote and it sure as heck ain't no laser.

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Kit Craft
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft » Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:33 pm

salemj wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 7:51 pm
It is too bad. What you really need is an original KS. It is one of the few large knives that feels small and has a "real" pointed tip. The closest alternative I've seen is the Kono Funayuki-gyuto, I think. (I like pointy tips so I tend to remember.). There are a few others that are close, I guess. Sukenaris are not that far off.

Otherwise, I think you might try a Kono Ginsan. I bet you could do a lot with it. Mine is a super-laser, but I have seen several on the forum that were actually pretty far from lasers. They tend to run short, they are refined, they have good steel, but they also would be really fun for you to play with on the stones.

I realize this isn't carbon...but I don't think it matters. I see you getting lots of fun out of a Kono Ginsan. It may not be an amazing knife that will set you on 240s...but honestly, I don't think any knife will do that. More importantly, it will be fun, cut well, and will fit you basic desires (decent but no-frills handle, <230, shorter at the heel, good steel, delicate tip, if not exactly dagger-like, and full of potential).
Thanks, Joe. I will keep that in mind. It is one on my list. Well, in 210 form it was but that is a good knife to go 240 as it is undersized. I like the profile too!
Robstreperous wrote:
Thu Oct 12, 2017 9:09 pm
What I am looking for, really, not a true 240. I would like something along the lines of a 9 inch K-sab so around 225-230mm with a shortish heel height and a very point profile. I still prefer that suji type profile!
t I think if I go that route I might try to find a used KS...(I know, good luck) or the new Shibata...I mean, how can I go wrong there? :P
PS: No lasers
That's how. The Shibata is a true laser. Kit, even though I'm in a passionate love affair with my Kashima I'm not sure it's for you. I love the R2 and it's sharpened pretty nicely but.... from all your stuff I've read wouldn't you really have a nice carbon to sharpen?

So... honesty, based on what you've written I think what you're lookingfor is a Doi. I'm enjoying mine very much right now. Still getting used to it. Right profile for what you wrote and it sure as heck ain't no laser.
Thing is, I guess I don't know what I want. :lol: I mean, I can always break out a 180/210 if I want something more delicate. But it is hard to get out of that rut of the known and try something new.

Yeah, I love me some carbon on the stones! But, you know, I have other knives. I just recently got into some 19c27 blades and I actually like the steel.

Now, speaking generally, I guess I am looking for that one 240 that might make me say "hey, big knives are fun". :lol: I think as Joe said, an actual KS might be the way to go about that. Well, I have a 10 in K-sab that I like but it has it shortcomings for sure, loads of them...but in general I like it. Heh, the Sab is actually a new thing for me. I guess at about two years in I am still very green and discovering what I like.

What I can say is that I only own one knife that never leaves my kit. If it is not on my board, it is in my bag. It is a Fujiwara FKH 180mm gyuto that is actually about 191mm long. It is a compromise in many ways but I like the profile. It is short at the heel, pointy and works well for its length. The question is, how to find a knife that relates similarly but in a larger package. It may not even feel like a similar knife because if it gets taller I think it might lose functionality in the way I use it.

Maybe what I am looking for is actually a tall suji??

Um, the Doi sounds like a good plan too!

Cutuu
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Cutuu » Thu Oct 12, 2017 11:42 pm

I strongly +1 the kono ginsan for you. Super nimble and it gets you your puesdo suji also. Plus you will have fun sharpening it. And also all that joe said about it The shibata is definitely all laser, but i thought you would like it... Until you said no lasers.

gladius
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by gladius » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:05 am

Got Shiraki? Classic Sakai blade, 46mm height @ ~230 edge length (also in-stock at a good price). It has a nimble feel I think you will like...

TESSHU Wa Gyuto 240mm

Image

cedarhouse
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by cedarhouse » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:20 am

This is tough. I always find it easier to recommend a knife to someone with little experience because I have a lot of latitude to screw up the rec. I mean, if the knife is thinner than they might have preferred, they don't have a lot of points of reference so the knife is less likely to disappoint.

In this case, you know knives, you are trying to step out of your comfort zone purposefully find a knife that not only has attributes you love, but sells you on attributes you don't. It is scary to make a rec here because it feels a bit set up to fail.

That said...

The KS or a KS clone is an obvious pick here...I mean you flat out described the KS profile. It seems silly to look further. IIRC there was a shorter KS available but it was never revered as the "standard" expression of the knife.

If I had to keep fishing, my next pick, bar none, would be the Kono Shirogami #2 laser (Or really even the HD). Now I own a much older example and I do not know if the knives on the site are different from earlier production runs, but my Kono laser is mono steel, has an aggressive tip, and is under length in the 240mm. The problem is you literally said, "No lasers"

If I just had to recommend a 240mm gyuto, with no other constraints, my default would be the Kurosaki AS, Kurosaki Laser, Koishi, Kanehiro AS, or Kanehiro Ginsan. I consider all these knives fairly interchangeable. The are not the same, but they largely use similar design choices to solve similar design requirements. ...and they are all exceptional knives. I would also throw in a Tanaka knife. I remember really loving the Sekiso but if I had my druthers, I really wish his Ginsan knife were still out there to recommend.

Cutuu
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Cutuu » Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:21 am

gladius wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:05 am
Got Shiraki? Classic Sakai blade, 46mm height @ ~230 edge length (also in-stock at a good price). It has a nimble feel I think you will like...

TESSHU Wa Gyuto 240mm

Image
That reminds me of the kono ginsan

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Kit Craft
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:14 am

The thing about lasers is that I have or have had them. I had a Kono W#2 and still have the Swedish stainless. I have a Gesshin W#2 and had the Stainless. I had a Tadatsuna stainless. I had a Sakai Yusuke W#2 (wish they still had the extra thick KS profile but they don't). I just got a Takamura R2 last month and an Ikeda AS 210. The Ikeda 250 changed to the standard 240, I was too slow on trying that one. The Ikeda currently comes closest to what I want in feel in hand.

Lasers, they are missing something. Yeah, I know they are missing steel...Let's say that I am doing carrots brunoise, most lasers feel gutless and flimsy. I want something with a little more meat to it that inspires confidence and is stiff in hand. Now, not something massive like a Toyama either. I mean just a wee bit more metal in there. Maybe larger lasers do feel like this, I don't know. However, my Tadatsuna was a 240 and still meh.

Non lasers that were mentioned. I have had three Tanaka knives and have kept one, the KU. I had the VG-10 and Sekiso also but decided I wanted to try a Sekiso in 180 but they went out of stock everywhere! I suppose the Ginsan could be an option (still available in the land down under). I have also had a few knives from the Masakage group as well. Mizu, Yuki and Koishi. I got to use but never owned a Kurosaki AS and Anryu Hammered.

I suppose another option is to go custom and ask for a 9 inch KS profile in mono carbon. :P

I do wonder why the the Sab profile is looked at only as the 10 inch...They make a 6 inch, 8 inch, 9 inch, 10 inch, 12 inch and 14 inch Sab. Hell, maybe more.

Now, that Tesshu seems like a winner. A lot of the Tesshu models remind me of the Kono knives. Why the Ginsan over W#2 or B#1/2?

Robstreperous
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Robstreperous » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:36 am

Kit Craft wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:14 am
Lasers, they are missing something. Yeah, I know they are missing steel...Let's say that I am doing carrots brunoise, most lasers feel gutless and flimsy. I want something with a little more meat to it that inspires confidence and is stiff in hand. Now, not something massive like a Toyama either. I mean just a wee bit more metal in there.
Sounds like the HD2 I just flipped. Maybe even the Kamo R2 except for the profile.

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Kit Craft
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft » Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:52 am

Robstreperous wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:36 am
Kit Craft wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:14 am
Lasers, they are missing something. Yeah, I know they are missing steel...Let's say that I am doing carrots brunoise, most lasers feel gutless and flimsy. I want something with a little more meat to it that inspires confidence and is stiff in hand. Now, not something massive like a Toyama either. I mean just a wee bit more metal in there.
Sounds like the HD2 I just flipped. Maybe even the Kamo R2 except for the profile.
See, that is the second time this week that someone has told me that about the HD2. Does it have some extra weight in the midsection compared to the white and stainless lasers? Maybe I am weird but I have just not resonated with the Kono offerings that I have tried. I prefer my Ginga's.

Yeah, the Kamo may not be the right profile but I do find them interesting. I know I said 240 but there is something about that 180mm R2 that speaks to me. For an undersized knife it should have some heft at 50+mm tall and point it is, or at least according to photos. If it came in AS (the 180) I'd have bought it long ago. :lol:

I wish mono carbon, non lasers, was more prevalent. Not thick Sanjo like monsters but a nice middleweight.

Robstreperous
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Robstreperous » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:31 am

Everyone's got their preferences...

I had the Kashima and HD2 at the same time. If they were swords the Kashima would be a foil and the HD2 an epee. As long as I'm at it the Doi would be a sabre.

Only other Kono I've tried was a Fuji. That too would be a sabre using this analog.

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jbart65
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by jbart65 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:46 am

The Kono ginsan, or at least the one I owned, performed much like a laser but it felt heftier than the HD2, W#2, Swedish. I didn't find that it worked as well as slicing as the lasers, but it did quite well. Even if you wanted one, though, they are very hard to find now. Still would have been a good pick.

The Tanaka ginsan I like even better among stainless, but it's definitely a middleweight.

I think a Tetsuhiro Hammered might have been a good choice for you, but again, impossible to find. 49-50ish at the heel, very smooth and good as a slicer.

I am tempted to recommend a Koishi 240. I bet it's not like many things you tried. So thin at the edge and just glides thru everything.

The Kurosaki R2 is quite nimble and not too tall.

I am a big fan of the Yahiko Nashiji. Around 49 and just a smooth performer.
Jeffry B

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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by SteveG » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:48 am

Kit, have you thought about the Goko 210 or 240 Gyuto? Mark is sending me a 240 in the latest box which should arrive tomorrow. The 240 is pretty big, but the 210 is a bit oversized as well, which might fit your needs. I liked the Bunka enough to keep it from the last group of knives and I'm really digging this knife. As you can see from the QL video, it has some cladding imperfections, but honestly, that doesn't bother me a bit. It's just a damn good knife and of course the steel is a sharpener's dream (wink, wink).

I'll give the 240 a thorough test drive and see how she does :-).

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Kit Craft
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:49 am

Robstreperous wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:31 am
Everyone's got their preferences...

I had the Kashima and HD2 at the same time. If they were swords the Kashima would be a foil and the HD2 an epee. As long as I'm at it the Doi would be a sabre.

Only other Kono I've tried was a Fuji. That too would be a sabre using this analog.
Yep, I totally don't follow. :oops: I looked it up and these seem to have something to do with fencing. If I follow what I read, the foil is the lightest duty followed by the epee and then the saber. Does that make a Toyama or Watanabe a Clamore? :?

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Kit Craft
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft » Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:53 am

jbart65 wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:46 am
The Kono ginsan, or at least the one I owned, performed much like a laser but it felt heftier than the HD2, W#2, Swedish. I didn't find that it worked as well as slicing as the lasers, but it did quite well. Even if you wanted one, though, they are very hard to find now. Still would have been a good pick.

The Tanaka ginsan I like even better among stainless, but it's definitely a middleweight.

I think a Tetsuhiro Hammered might have been a good choice for you, but again, impossible to find. 49-50ish at the heel, very smooth and good as a slicer.

I am tempted to recommend a Koishi 240. I bet it's not like many things you tried. So thin at the edge and just glides thru everything.

The Kurosaki R2 is quite nimble and not too tall.

I am a big fan of the Yahiko Nashiji. Around 49 and just a smooth performer.
I believe that is part of the reason the Tesshu was suggested. I have seen it suggested in place of a Kono on more than one occasion.

The thing about the Echizen knives is their profile.

SteveG wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:48 am
Kit, have you thought about the Goko 210 or 240 Gyuto? Mark is sending me a 240 in the latest box which should arrive tomorrow. The 240 is pretty big, but the 210 is a bit oversized as well, which might fit your needs. I liked the Bunka enough to keep it from the last group of knives and I'm really digging this knife. As you can see from the QL video, it has some cladding imperfections, but honestly, that doesn't bother me a bit. It's just a damn good knife and of course the steel is a sharpener's dream (wink, wink).

I'll give the 240 a thorough test drive and see how she does :-).
Nope, I haven't thought about this at all really. I was making dinner last night and said, I want to try a 240 because it has been awhile. :lol: I will check it out though.

btbyrd
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by btbyrd » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:03 am

Steve: Thanks for the tip about the Goko. Those look incredible for the price.

gladius
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by gladius » Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:55 am


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Kit Craft
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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:08 pm

gladius wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:55 am
Hurry!...

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kuasla24usre.html
Hah, I am looking for Christmas gift ideas as my wife asked. My budget is gone until then. Out of curiosity, I wonder if that is the one that had the weird Kanji on it. Is there a reason it has to be the Kuro laser? What about one of his R2 lines? Even if Mark runs out by Xmas time there are more than a few sources direct from Japan.

Another question, to all. If I decided to include lasers will it make a difference? I mean, will I notice a difference in laser performance and feel when going from a 210 to a 240 or in the case of the new Shibata a 250? Will that extra material push it over the edge and make it feel like what was missing is now there? Does that even make sense?

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Re: So...I want another 240 Gyuto

Post by sharksfan7 » Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:53 pm

Kit Craft wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 12:08 pm
gladius wrote:
Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:55 am
Hurry!...

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kuasla24usre.html
Out of curiosity, I wonder if that is the one that had the weird Kanji on it.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure that one was mine. I ended up taking Mark's offer to return it, even though I initially decided to keep it. I liked the way it cut, but those little changes that I wasn't expecting was keeping me from truly loving that knife. If you know about 'em and they don't bother you, at that closeout price, it would be a steal for whoever picks it up.

Hmmm, I wonder if Mark would be mad if I just re-bought it... :lol:
--Tony

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