Recommend sujihiki <$90

[beanbag]

Hello folks,

Considering a suji knife for cutting raw meat. My Masutani santoku knife is what I consider pretty sharp, and cuts most fruits and veggies with ease. But on things like raw chicken fillets and beef cubes, the meat tends to roll under the blade. Plus it is not long enough to do those long pull strokes I see in the sushi cutting videos. I don't have that much experience sharpening, but I assume that if I tried to make my general purpose knives even sharper, they will lose some bite and edge durability. So I figure the suji will be the stupid sharp single purpose knife.

On this site, there seems to be three knives in this price range (unless I missed some)
Tojiro DP (210 version listed under petty knife)
Fujiwara FKM (stainless)
Fujiwara FKH (high carbon)

I'm interested in either 210 or 240 length.

This is what I see as + and -, although of course I could be wrong about things or missing something I didn't realize was important:

Tojiro: +vg10 +cladding -printed logo a bit cheesy -somebody said blade kind of thick behind edge?
FKM: +corrosion resistant -printed logo -steel not as hard, can it get as sharp?
FKH: (maybe I won't care about corrosion coz it looks rustic?) +stamped logo

[Kit Craft]

Hello folks,

Considering a suji knife for cutting raw meat. My Masutani santoku knife is what I consider pretty sharp, and cuts most fruits and veggies with ease. But on things like raw chicken fillets and beef cubes, the meat tends to roll under the blade. Plus it is not long enough to do those long pull strokes I see in the sushi cutting videos. I don't have that much experience sharpening, but I assume that if I tried to make my general purpose knives even sharper, they will lose some bite and edge durability. So I figure the suji will be the stupid sharp single purpose knife.

On this site, there seems to be three knives in this price range (unless I missed some)
Tojiro DP (210 version listed under petty knife)
Fujiwara FKM (stainless)
Fujiwara FKH (high carbon)

I'm interested in either 210 or 240 length.

This is what I see as + and -, although of course I could be wrong about things or missing something I didn't realize was important:

Tojiro: +vg10 +cladding -printed logo a bit cheesy -somebody said blade kind of thick behind edge?
FKM: +corrosion resistant -printed logo -steel not as hard, can it get as sharp?
FKH: (maybe I won't care about corrosion coz it looks rustic?) +stamped logo

Of those three I like the FKH. It is carbon steel and will take a really nice patina if you slice up some cooked protein first. It is not as thin behind the edge as the FKM, not even close, but it is still an improvement (IMO) over most euro knives. Edge taking is wonderful, it will get silly sharp without much effort. Edge retention is only okay but on a suji, that isn't really as much of an issue. It is a stiffer blade, particularly the 240 compared to the 270, but still has a bit of flex if forced. Not as much as the FKM. Reactivity is less of a worry with meat, imo, as well. And while this knife is crazy reactive at first, it settles down and it is not rust prone like most iron cladding I deal with. I mean, if you don't take care of it it will still rust but it will not rust if you forget to wipe it between product.

I love the utility and price of the FKH knives. They are no nonsense in every way. Yes, I love my Misono Swedish (Dragon) more but it is also more than twice the price for about 5% performance gain.

[beanbag]

Thanks for getting back soon.
What sharpening procedure / grits would you use to get this "silly sharp"?

[Kit Craft]

Thanks for getting back soon.
What sharpening procedure / grits would you use to get this "silly sharp"?

The steel will take about any edge you want to give it but it will not hold super refinement well with board contact. It does come back to life on a strop easily though. For raw protein only I go 1k-2k-8k and then 1 micron diamond on blasa. If I were doing cooked protein I would go 1k-2k and a few strokes on a bare leather or 1 micron on balsa. This is just my routine and others will use different. And there are many ways to get similar edges with different stones. Be that small jumps or big jumps with more time spent on each stone. Loaded strops or what have you.

[beanbag]

What are the things you have against the Tojiro and FKM?

[Kit Craft]

What are the things you have against the Tojiro and FKM?

Nothing really, they are good knives for the price as well. I just prefer carbon and a more robust knife. The FKM is the thinnest at and behind the edge and also has a fair bit of flex. The Steel will take an okay edge but will not hold well. The Tojiro is more robust than the FKM and will take less of a fine edge but hold a utility edge much better than the other too. It is not so fun to sharpen and can be a bit tedious to deburr. Fit and Finish will be the worst of the bunch on this one but not terrible, most of the time. Sometimes you do get unlucky though.

[Lepus]

I'll give another perspective: I have used an FKM 270mm sujihiki to fabricate and slice dozens or hundreds of tons of raw and cooked meat, poultry, and fish and I would suggest it. It offers enough weight to get through most cuts and it is just thin enough to get through raw or seared cooked fish beautifully. Sharpening is pretty easy if your pressure control is decent and edge retention is good enough to get through dozens of cooked loins or a hundred turkeys with one sharpening.

I have not used the FKH to compare, but I have used other thinner and thicker sujihikis and I think the FKM grind is just about perfect as a multipurpose sujihiki can be. Mine has seen serious thinning and has largely been replaced by a knife that has a more specific purpose, but I still enjoy it and consider it first rate.

[Kit Craft]

I'll give another perspective: I have used an FKM 270mm sujihiki to fabricate and slice dozens or hundreds of tons of raw and cooked meat, poultry, and fish and I would suggest it. It offers enough weight to get through most cuts and it is just thin enough to get through raw or seared cooked fish beautifully. Sharpening is pretty easy if your pressure control is decent and edge retention is good enough to get through dozens of cooked loins or a hundred turkeys with one sharpening.

I have not used the FKH to compare, but I have used other thinner and thicker sujihikis and I think the FKM grind is just about perfect as a multipurpose sujihiki can be. Mine has seen serious thinning and has largely been replaced by a knife that has a more specific purpose, but I still enjoy it and consider it first rate.

I can't say I disagree. I could easily live my life with either suji. I am only a home cook but do a fair bit of meat fab. Honestly, I prefer my Misono to all of them but only by a little. Regardless, for me the FKH just edges out the other two by a nanometer.

[Lepus]

I could not survive without a sujihiki. I would be better off without a gyuto.

[beanbag]

Just to throw another contender into the mix, there is also the Kai Wasabi line of knives. They have a 23cm suji and 24cm yanagi (seems to be euro only though...) and a 21cm yanagi in the US.

Anybody have any experience sharpening their moly-vanadium type of steel?

[Kit Craft]

Never heard of it.

[Lepus]

They are not in the same league. The handles on them are pretty unpleasant and the steel and double bevel grind do not compete with the other considered knives. The grinds on the Fujiwaras would not be out of place on more expensive knives and the Tojiro is at least competent.

I would not suggest a yanagiba to anyone looking for a multipurpose slicer. They slice fish particularly well, but in most people's hands they sacrifice their ability to do other things even satisfactorily in exchange.

[beanbag]

hmmm, I did some more reading and noticed these two comments on the FKH knives
1) kind of thick behind the edge
2) sulphur smell

Kit, did you find either of these an issue?

For now, the plan is to have the suji only for soft foods like raw and cooked meat. If I want to cut hard raw veggies where "wedging" is an issue, I'd probably use my nakiri or santoku knife.

Another option is that I can just (sigh...) up my budget to $120. Then I can get either the Masahiro "virgin carbon" knife, which is somehow a better carbon alloy and harder, or I can just say F--k it and get one of those rosewood handled hammered damascus sujis with the VG10. Apparently everybody hates the VG10 due to being hard to deburr, but at least the knife will be nice-looking.

[beanbag]

I would not suggest a yanagiba to anyone looking for a multipurpose slicer. They slice fish particularly well, but in most people's hands they sacrifice their ability to do other things even satisfactorily in exchange.

ok, good to know

[Lepus]

Your other post prompted me to cycle back around because it was as you said not a recommendation thread.

I don't have anything to add, but I will reiterate what I said before. I am a professional chef. I have cut more beef with my FKM sujihiki than you and your family will ever eat meat in your entire lives. If you want to explore further into the knife cosmos feel free, but do not for a moment think the knife is insufficient for your needs.

[Kit Craft]

hmmm, I did some more reading and noticed these two comments on the FKH knives
1) kind of thick behind the edge
2) sulphur smell

Kit, did you find either of these an issue?

For now, the plan is to have the suji only for soft foods like raw and cooked meat. If I want to cut hard raw veggies where "wedging" is an issue, I'd probably use my nakiri or santoku knife.

Another option is that I can just (sigh...) up my budget to $120. Then I can get either the Masahiro "virgin carbon" knife, which is somehow a better carbon alloy and harder, or I can just say F--k it and get one of those rosewood handled hammered damascus sujis with the VG10. Apparently everybody hates the VG10 due to being hard to deburr, but at least the knife will be nice-looking.

It is thicker behind the edge than some other J-knives but still thinner than any European knife that I have used. I think it is exaggerated as is the "reactivity" issue. I find SK4 no more "stinky" than mono white #2. The difference is that white #2 is highly reactive for a very, very short period of time and stabilizes. Or at least that has been my experience. The Sk4 is moderately reactive and takes longer to get a stable patina. Dice up a few onions and all will be good. Or cut up some mid rare beef.

Edit: I would like to add that there are a few forum regulars on a few other boards, who also visit here from time to time to time, that swear up and down the older models of the FKH were much more reactive than the new models. None of mine are more than 2 years old so I can only speak for what I have and they are at the very least half as reactive as iron cladding. Probably 3-4 times less reactive, in a way.