240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by jbart65 »

For that technique, at that speed and thrust, a more forgiving knife with softer metal is probably best. The top one in the photo is the Messermeister. It has a Olivewood handle. Sekiso on the bottom.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

jbart65 wrote: Mon Feb 05, 2018 10:17 pm For that technique, at that speed and thrust, a more forgiving knife with softer metal is probably best. The top one in the photo is the Messermeister. It has a Olivewood handle. Sekiso on the bottom.
Once I learned that technique for garlic, I can't imagine myself ever doing it another way. Having seen one of my most common tasks, would you say there is basically no J knife, mass produced or not, that would be a good candidate for me? As much as it pains me to say it, maybe the Wusthof Epicure is best for this?
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by jbart65 »

I think some would work, but I am not sure they would get quite as keen an edge. Masamoto VG, some of the softer VG10s, maybe the Kohetsu SLD or Kanehide AEBL. The Tojiro and Fujiwara.

With great technique some softer carbon edges might work, but it seems inevitable that some torqueing will occur with that method for garlic.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

jbart65 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 6:36 pm I think some would work, but I am not sure they would get quite as keen an edge. Masamoto VG, some of the softer VG10s, maybe the Kohetsu SLD or Kanehide AEBL. The Tojiro and Fujiwara.

With great technique some softer carbon edges might work, but it seems inevitable that some torqueing will occur with that method for garlic.
Is the concern for the edge from the rocking or from sliding the flat of the knife against the board? The rocking I'm pretty sure won't mess it up (it's a pretty straight motion), but I do worry about about the sliding the side of the blade (which is crucial to the method because it further grinds the garlic). I was thinking more the problem was none of the J knives have enough belly to make it work.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by jbart65 »

Plenty have enough belly. It's the sliding motion, not up and down rocking, that could be an issue. Harder rockwell knives will get micro chips if the motion isn't precise enough. I still have to believe a cook with excellent skills can make it work. (micro chips are quite manageable btw).

Try it with your nakiri. I know it's not a good rocker, but see how the edge responds to the sliding motion.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by Igalor »

jbart65 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 10:34 pm I still have to believe a cook with excellent skills can make it work. (micro chips are quite manageable btw).

Try it with your nakiri. I know it's not a good rocker, but see how the edge responds to the sliding motion.
I dont think any of my jknives can hold up to that, i used a masamoto vg for years, and I rolled the edge plenty from doing that. on the other hand, it rarely chipped, that knife is super tough, and the edge comes back really easy, a couple of swipes on my ceramic rod and we were ready to go once again.
jknives give better performance but also require better skills, I can easily get the same result by chopping, and I can do that with any of my gyutos just as easily. any of them has a sweet spot big enough for a couple of garlic cloves, but if you want to do it at the same speed, you better have some skills or you are going to chip the edge or catch a finger. a Chinese chef will do the same with a chuka just as effortlessly, but that is a whole different beast
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

Igalor wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:49 am jknives give better performance but also require better skills, I can easily get the same result by chopping, and I can do that with any of my gyutos just as easily. any of them has a sweet spot big enough for a couple of garlic cloves, but if you want to do it at the same speed, you better have some skills or you are going to chip the edge or catch a finger. a Chinese chef will do the same with a chuka just as effortlessly, but that is a whole different beast
You don't find you get a stronger flavor by crushing it as you mince, or you know a technique for the same result without mashing it with the side of the blade as you go?
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by Igalor »

marlinspike wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:33 pm
Igalor wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:49 am jknives give better performance but also require better skills, I can easily get the same result by chopping, and I can do that with any of my gyutos just as easily. any of them has a sweet spot big enough for a couple of garlic cloves, but if you want to do it at the same speed, you better have some skills or you are going to chip the edge or catch a finger. a Chinese chef will do the same with a chuka just as effortlessly, but that is a whole different beast
You don't find you get a stronger flavor by crushing it as you mince, or you know a technique for the same result without mashing it with the side of the blade as you go?
it's not the mashing (though that might be a bit risky if not careful), its the walking with both hands that is going to mess up your edges, you can mash allright, then chop away, as long as you keep your edge straight to the cut and don't try to cut through your board you should get the same results and your knife should be fine
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

So my short list after looking carefully at all of them is the Konosuke GS+ (which I'm guessing is the least able to hold up), the Zanmai Ripple or Zanmai Hybrid, the Yoshimitsu Blue, and the Hinoura Tamashii. Between those, which one would you guys say is the better rocker and which will have better fit and finish?

(in the order listed above)

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kogsgy240.html
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/zahyvggy24.html (the ripple is not on CKTG)
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/yobl2gy24.html
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/hita24gy.html
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by gladius »

marlinspike wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 8:40 pm So my short list after looking carefully at all of them is the Konosuke GS+ (which I'm guessing is the least able to hold up), the Zanmai Ripple or Zanmai Hybrid, the Yoshimitsu Blue, and the Hinoura Tamashii. Between those, which one would you guys say is the better rocker and which will have better fit and finish?

(in the order listed above)

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/kogsgy240.html
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/zahyvggy24.html (the ripple is not on CKTG)
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/yobl2gy24.html
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/hita24gy.html
---
The Hinoura is the top knife there and capable of rocking BUT all these knives are HARD - i.e. >60HRC and should be used with care. The garlic mincing technique is best used with softer thicker knives like the Euro type. Since you mentioned the new gyuto would be "accompanied by a bolstered german knife" you should use that BGK for garlic duty.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

gladius wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:17 pm ---
The Hinoura is the top knife there and capable of rocking BUT all these knives are HARD - i.e. >60HRC and should be used with care. The garlic mincing technique is best used with softer thicker knives like the Euro type. Since you mentioned the new gyuto would be "accompanied by a bolstered german knife" you should use that BGK for garlic duty.
Thanks. So I guess I'll be all Hinoura (that Ripple is so beautiful though :cry: ). I actually tried the garlic technique with my Nakiri (but without the garlic) just to see, and its edge actually held up fine to it. I noticed the edge that came on the nakiri for some reason dulled quickly, but after I did my initially sharpening all I've had to do is finally yesterday hit it with my 8000 stone, despite my initial sharpening being a slightly more acute angle than what it came with.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by Igalor »

if the tamashi hinoura is ground like the hinoura that i have, it will be hard and VERY thin at and behind the edge, I would never mince like that with that knife, it is also a terrific knife. the German knife suggestion is probably the best, or learn to use new techniques, the hinoura that i have is very precise, has a very, very thin tip, good grinds, and is an excellent knife, it is stout enough to mash some garlic, but i dont think it could withstand that kind of rocking without damage.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by jbart65 »

Igalor wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 11:18 pm I dont think it could withstand that kind of rocking without damage.
Question is, would you need to rock so hard with a J knife like Pepin does with a Euro knife. When I rock with a J knife, I don't use much force because I don't need to. I can rock fast and easy.

I am still a bit skeptical, granted. But perhaps some adjustment in technique will make it work.

I think I would be much more comfortable using an Anryu Hammered than a Hinoura, though. The Anyru is the toughest carbon edge knife I've used, followed by the Sekiso and perhaps the Gihei. All blue No. 2.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

Very rarely do I like how hammered finishes look. I wish one of you would just lie to me and say the Zanmai Ripple is the best one lol. My gf is going knife shopping for herself (houseguest ruined the victorinox I had given her) and I might tag along to try the different profiles (no local store has the proper J knives, but I can find Miyabi which are similar enough to be a gauge I think - she knows she wants an 8 inch Wusthof classic and nothing else, so not like I'll be trying things at a local store and not giving them any business).
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by jbart65 »

The Ikon is much better than the Classic. I owned both. No contest.

Unfortunately, not a lot of us have tried a Zanmai.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

jbart65 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:50 pm The Ikon is much better than the Classic. I owned both. No contest.

Unfortunately, not a lot of us have tried a Zanmai.
How old was your Classic? The new classics have the same edge angle. I could never make the Ikon handle work for me personally, and if it's a German knife, particularly if it's one knife to do everything, I would want the bolster. In her instance, the reasoning is much simpler: it's the one she likes the look of.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by jbart65 »

Older Classic. Just resharpened and gave to my son as a first knife.

I hate bolsters. As a home cook, I have zero need for one. I suppose I could see a pro using one to crack lobsters or nuts and such, but the heel eventually gets ruined. Multiple sharpenings cause a recurve near the bolster and you can't get the very end of the heel back to peak sharpness. I've had to eliminate recurves sharpening other people's knives. It's no fun.

My former Ikon, and now my bolsterless Messermeister, are much easier to sharpen and the heel can be properly used. I think all the Messers are bolsterless.
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Re: 240mm Gyuto - Misono UX10 vs Minamoto VG-10?

Post by marlinspike »

jbart65 wrote: Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:37 pm Older Classic. Just resharpened and gave to my son as a first knife.

I hate bolsters. As a home cook, I have zero need for one. I suppose I could see a pro using one to crack lobsters or nuts and such, but the heel eventually gets ruined. Multiple sharpenings cause a recurve near the bolster and you can't get the very end of the heel back to peak sharpness. I've had to eliminate recurves sharpening other people's knives. It's no fun.

My former Ikon, and now my bolsterless Messermeister, are much easier to sharpen and the heel can be properly used. I think all the Messers are bolsterless.
Growing up we always had Wusthof (in fact, my mom still has one from 1980). Old habits die hard. The bolstered area is your meat cleaver and nut cracker.
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