Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

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Ourorboros
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Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Ourorboros »

So I'm looking ahead to my next gyuto. Won't be for a little bit, but I'm thinking about it now.
At the moment these two KS based gyuto's have caught my eye, two AS clad laser(ish?) gyutos. As a push chopper, they look like they should work fine.
Any thoughts on either? Or, if I'm lucky a comparison?
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Kit Craft
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft »

I had the Ikeda but in 210. It was very, very close to being a true laser but not quite there. From what I hear about the Shibata it is the laser of lasers but I have not used one. Jeffry seems to really like his though! I could chop just fine with the Ikeda 210 so I assume the new 240 should be fine as it is supposed to have a profile more similar to the smaller knife than in the past, where it had a KS profile. Though, that should have been good for a chopper too. All speculation though!

I am sure someone has had a chance to use both and can give you a better idea.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by easilver »

I have the Ikeda. It doesn't feel like a laser to me with a 3.34mm spine, though it is a very good cutter--one of my best. The cladding is reactive, so you will have a patina on this knife pretty quick unless you polish it. A great knife, though I wish it were less reactive.

I have the Shibata R2 Kashima and also had his 240 R-2 k-tip gyuto. I'm not as comfortable with lasers, so these knives seem a bit insubstantial to me. They cut great. If you go this way, I suggest the AS version. It's stainless clad, but the AS core will give you a very nice edge.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by jbart65 »

The Ikeda is a very good knife. While the profile is KS-like, the Ikeda is appreciably different. A bit heavier, a little thicker at the tip, cladded. Cuts extremely well and is suitable for a variety of techniques, including chopping. As Ed said, it's fairly substantial even though it's just around 6 ounces.

The Shibata AS is entirely different. A Domesday Laser. Even though it's got a stainless cladding, it's probably the thinnest knife I have owned, from heel to tip. Slide thru product better than any knife I have used, including the various Konos or Takamura 210. Onions, it almost seems as if they fall in half on their own volition.

Downsides?

I cringed when I used the Shibata to cut thru a crispy crust of a cast-iron cooked steak. I quickly switched to my Yahiko Nashiji to finish the job. The crusty steak aside, it's handled everything else with ease. I am not sure I've ever had a knife that never wedged once. But I have such a knife now. The tallest carrots and the thickest squash are no match.

The Shibata AS is NOT a rocker, mind you. I could rock cut stacked snow peas just fine, but mincing herbs? Get outa here! Although it chops well on low ingredients, the Shibata was made for push and pull cutting.

Handles and fit and finish are excellent on both knives.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Kit Craft »

I do think it is worth noting that the Ikeda no longer comes with a KS profile as that is what is being directly looked at.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Robstreperous »

Jeffry's comments above are right on the button regarding the Kashima (I have the R2) It's the racehorse in the stable and a winner of a racehorse at that. Don't go using it to jump fences.... Neither you, the horse, nor the knife will will be happy with the results. Slice - Yes! Chop - be careful.

The only thing I'll add is in regard to sharpening the R2. I get slightly better feedback from my AS knives while sharpening but the edge I've been able to produce on my R2 lacks for nothing. Among the most highly performant edges I've ever been able to produce with my meager skill, tools and effort.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Lepus »

The Shibata AS and Kashima don't have the same profile and at the very least different spine thicknesses. I haven't tried the AS but I would not want to say anything specific about,it other than that Shibata makes a wonderful laser.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by gladius »

The Shibata AS is not really a KS profiled knife but has more of a traditional shape. See viewtopic.php?p=36899#p36899

I'm not sure how much different if any the Kotetsu line is from the Battleship or Kashima but I've got the Shibata Kotetsu in R2 and have no reservations cutting anything with it. Very strong cutter and steel considering the thin laser geometry.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Robstreperous »

gladius wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:27 am I'm not sure how much different if any the Kotetsu line is from the Battleship or Kashima but I've got the Shibata Kotetsu in R2 and have no reservations cutting anything with it. Very strong cutter and steel considering the thin laser geometry.
The Kotetsu is another fantastic knife and I enjoyed my time with it immensely. Superb cutter and the knife that really opened my eyes to what a laser could be. From memory it seemed slightly more substantial than the Kashima.

Mind you, they're both outstanding tools. Sort of like the Kashima's a top fuel dragster and the Kotetsu's a racing Porsche 911. The Kashima's just a touch more delicate but dang this thing goes fast in a hurry. Both are excellent blades and you could do a lot worse than either.

For my personal use I supplement my Kashima with a more robust blade when I want to chop or do heavier work. (Tsourkan A2)
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by easilver »

I like the Shibata AS profile better. I find the R2 profile a bit short in the heal. The AS is talled by a couple mm and I like the extra height behind the tip. Just personal preference.
Ed in L.A.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by gladius »

easilver wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:49 am I like the Shibata AS profile better. I find the R2 profile a bit short in the heal. The AS is talled by a couple mm and I like the extra height behind the tip. Just personal preference.
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You are referring to the AS vs Kashima, agreed I like the profile better too...
the Kotetsu R2 is tallest behind the tip (and strongest IMO).

I think the tips are really what differentiates them most, see viewtopic.php?p=36909#p36909
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Robstreperous »

gladius wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 11:04 am
easilver wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 10:49 am I like the Shibata AS profile better. I find the R2 profile a bit short in the heal. The AS is talled by a couple mm and I like the extra height behind the tip. Just personal preference.
------
You are referring to the AS vs Kashima, agreed I like the profile better too...
the Kotetsu R2 is tallest behind the tip (and strongest IMO).

I think the tips are really what differentiates them most, see viewtopic.php?p=36909#p36909
Haven't used the AS (would like to) but agree the Kotetsu's taller than the Kashima R2. I'd also agree if I were to have only 1 or two gyutos I'd want something taller than the Kashima. Face it, as Jeffry wrote, rocking is not its strongest suit.

But.... for every yin there's a yang.... something I'm enjoying tremendously about the Kashima is due to its short height and thin spine it actually functions as a pretty competent mid sized suji... I can slice/carve with my other gyutos but the Kashima's so much better at it.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by gladius »

Robstreperous wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm ...something I'm enjoying tremendously about the Kashima is due to its short height and thin spine it actually functions as a pretty competent mid sized suji... I can slice/carve with my other gyutos but the Kashima's so much better at it.
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...and thus the appeal of the KS profile.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Robstreperous »

gladius wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:25 pm
Robstreperous wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm ...something I'm enjoying tremendously about the Kashima is due to its short height and thin spine it actually functions as a pretty competent mid sized suji... I can slice/carve with my other gyutos but the Kashima's so much better at it.
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...and thus the appeal of the KS profile.
Really? This is going to sound naive but I honestly had no idea. I've never used a KS. The Kashima, Doi and Tsourkan - which I'd thought were KS like - are all kind of similar but kind of different.

Made me wonder: What exactly is a KS? Happily JeffB's helping me out and lending me his for a little while. At least one mystery about to be solved.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by gladius »

Robstreperous wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:55 pm
gladius wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:25 pm
Robstreperous wrote: Thu Jan 18, 2018 12:18 pm ...something I'm enjoying tremendously about the Kashima is due to its short height and thin spine it actually functions as a pretty competent mid sized suji... I can slice/carve with my other gyutos but the Kashima's so much better at it.
---
...and thus the appeal of the KS profile.
Really? This is going to sound naive but I honestly had no idea. I've never used a KS. The Kashima, Doi and Tsourkan - which I'd thought were KS like - are all kind of similar but kind of different.

Made me wonder: What exactly is a KS? Happily JeffB's helping me out and lending me his for a little while. At least one mystery about to be solved.
-----
short height and thin spine it actually functions as a pretty competent mid sized suji...
You'll have to directly compare the Kashima vs "the real thing" KS and post your comments.

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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Lepus »

The back end of the Masamoto has more to it than the Kashima with a solid middle weight grind at the heel. The tips on the two are not entirely dissimilar.

The profile is the same, or nearly so, on all of the above. I believe most of the clones are based on measurements Tim took from a KS. The Kashima in particular is a solid slicer, better than some sujihikis for general purpose slicing. I have used it for skinning and portioning a lot of fish and beef. Having used the Kashima I would like to own a Kotetsu sujihiki.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by salemj »

I usually agree with Lepus, but I have to disagree here. While I agree that the profiles on the KS clones may be very close, I think the nuances have to do with the amount of curve build into the radius and transition (and heel). For example, rocking with the Ikeda KS and a real KS are very different experiences for me. The Ikeda has more rounded transitions at the front and rear, making it more lively on the board. It is a great rocker for being so flat. I do not feel the original KS is as strong in this regard, which actually makes it a slightly better tip-chopper, too. I'm talking about the most subtle of measurements, but something you immediately feel on the board. Put another way, I am talking about the execution of the profile, not that they are very "different" profiles. That said, I have not spent much time with the KS...and only one, at that.

I bring this up because it relates to the discussion at hand: I would actually guess the Ikeda Gyuto and the Kashima Gyuto (AS) differ in precisely this regard, but the opposite—in this case, I would guess that the Kashima is the less flat, more "live" rocker with more of a heel relief and more of a continuous curve. I would expect the Ikeda to be just a bit less live. Beyond that, I would guess the Ikeda has a higher hardness, and they that it is also the more robust of the two (right along the lines of JBart above). I have no hesitations rocking the Ikeda on the board: even though it is a great cutter, the edge does not feel like it is going to grab and torque, even with lots of herbs. With my thinner knives (that are likely similar to the Shibata), I often feel more hesitant to rock with large batches of herbs, etc., because I worry about a woody stem or a board catch and more microchips. Just a thought to consider given that these are both exceptional knives, from what I understand.
~Joe

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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Lepus »

That's fair. I meant more that the tip section and belly have similar shape and utility. I don't find myself very attentive to a fully flat vs mostly flat heel unless I'm really looking for it.
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by Ourorboros »

Thank-you for the replies.
So it looks like these are two different animals with similar profiles and different grinds.
Does either have convexing to help with food release and is whippiness an issue?
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Re: Ikeda 240 vs Shibata AS or R-2 240mm Gyuto

Post by salemj »

I want to be clear that I have not used the Shibata AS, but I have tried his other knives in-store.

With this, I'd say that the Shibata may feel whippy to some users, but that this probably has more to do with your technique and how sharp you keep the knife. Anyone who has owned a Takeda knows what I mean: Takeda knives can be quite whippy and flexy off the board, but if you keep them sharp, they cut true and the flex is never an issue "in the cut" because they cut true and have great grinds, so as long as the technique is good, there is no flex or hesitation in the cut. A bad technique or a dull edge, however, will make these feel like doomed instruments.

Food release is more complicated. I have not used a Shibata knife at home, so I cannot comment on how the blade finishes, etc., aid with release in real life. Nonetheless, I can say that, with a knife like that, stuff will stick. Stuff will stick to the Ikeda, too. However, I would bet that the Ikeda would have better separation (which is not the same as food release). At the same time, I would also bet that the Shibata would glide through food better.

I think Lepus has a good point above, too: I am really talking nuances, because I think the bigger differences are obvious, and I think these are both great knives. Whether or not you'd notice a profile difference, you would adapt either way if you liked the knife overall, as I sincerely doubt that either would have a problematic or dissatisfactory profile. Different people are sensitive to different things, but I think both of these makers are refined and consistent enough that their knives fit well within the "usability" scale for the vast majority of users...which cannot be said for more extreme examples of handmade Japanese knives and their variants.

Just to add a wrinkle: if I were trying to decide between these two knives, I think the biggest issue for me (or point of focus) would be balance. Ikeda knives tend to have thicker tangs out of the handle, and for that reason, the balance is heavier at the grip and instills more confidence at the heel, for heavy chopping, with a slightly flightier tip. Knives like the Shibata have thinner necks and, for this reason, have a balance that extends further toward the tip. They tend to feel nimble, accurate, and predictable all the way to the point, but they can lack a more substantial and confident feel for chopping at the heel. Based on some of the questions asked above, it seems like my point of comparison is relevant. If you want the better cutter under ideal circumstances, go for the Shibata. If you want something that is going to instil more confidence and more risk-taking at a slight expense to grace in the cut, consider the Ikeda.

My Ikeda, perhaps more than any other knife I've tried (including Kurosaki's), leaves me anxious for the future. Ikeda knives have terrific heat treatments, grinds, and performance, but they feel just a bit compromised and conservative. I can imagine that, someday, this smith will get new opportunities and experiment a bit, and the result will be knives that perform at the level of, well, a Yoshikazu Ikeda, which is saying something. The Shibatas I've very briefly tried give a different feeling: this smith knows how to grind and finish a knife, but I don't feel like there is much room for growth or transcendence there. instead, I feel like he has found a recipe for making a particular kind of knife really, really well - near perfection, really - and that in itself is a huge accomplishment. But I'm getting very opinionated and off topic here...all hypotheticals...
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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