BEST CARBON 210 GYUTO UNDER $600

[salemj]

Actually, I think Shiraki does a lot of vg10, but I have zero actual evidence for that besides a few lines I’ve seen that look like his work.

Given that they guy is one of the fastest smiths in history, he’s probably fluent with most classic steels and also is probably still forging more than many other people. There seems to be no shortage.

[Organized]

Actually, I think Shiraki does a lot of vg10, but I have zero actual evidence for that besides a few lines I’ve seen that look like his work.

Given that they guy is one of the fastest smiths in history, he’s probably fluent with most classic steels and also is probably still forging more than many other people. There seems to be no shortage.

Oh yeah for sure, I wasn’t implying shiraki doesn’t or wouldn’t do wh2 or vg10. But with price and level of finish of the kagekiyo line I figured Shiraki is likely involved in the $500-700 lines not the $300-400 ones.

[salemj]

Actually, I think Shiraki does a lot of vg10, but I have zero actual evidence for that besides a few lines I’ve seen that look like his work.

Given that they guy is one of the fastest smiths in history, he’s probably fluent with most classic steels and also is probably still forging more than many other people. There seems to be no shortage.

Oh yeah for sure, I wasn’t implying shiraki doesn’t or wouldn’t do wh2 or vg10. But with price and level of finish of the kagekiyo line I figured Shiraki is likely involved in the $500-700 lines not the $300-400 ones.

Sure, yeah. Sorry. Didn't mean to confuse things. I just have thus reflex response regarding smiths because I think we hold them up over here as icons and sacred masters (perhaps because of the very, very rare one-man shops like K. Kato's), when in fact, it seems like most smiths, including Shiraki, care much less about the price point of a knife and much more about staying busy and stimulated by work. In fact, there have been a few suggestions that a lot of these masters seem to prefer quantity over quality in certain ways, perhaps because they get less push-back of retail, etc., but also perhaps because most of them are just knife makers, not sword forgers, and they really don't necessarily prefer high-end work over normal, predictable product. I wouldn't be surprised if Shiraki has his hand in a lot of lower-price lines, but that he tries to keep that a bit of a secret to avoid issues across retailers. I also wouldn't doubt for a second that he - and many other smiths - hate waste, hate returns, and hate dealing with customers. I have no basis for this, though, other than general perceptions from things I've read and seen over the years, as well as what I've heard about Japanese craft and aesthetics overall from people that study the culture and have lived there. I think one big difference we often forget (at least in America) is that, in most places, someone who is considered a "master" is never told what to do—they tell others how to appreciate the craft, and not the other way around, and if they decide something is "ok," they don't like someone else telling them it needs to be changed or adjusted. Usually, in the States, it seems like this kind of relationship is reserved for "artists," and that anyone who actually "sells" a product is immediately responsible for adjusting his or her product to meet a customer's own tastes or demands, regardless of their mastery of craft. I'm not sure many of the older smiths like this very much, although younger ones seems far more "Westernized" in this regard (younger versus old Doi; Kurosaki brothers versus Saji and older Kato; Shibata versus Takeda; the list goes on).

Sorry for the rant. Point is, it does relate to the idea of "best carbon gyuto." Some suppliers, like Konosuke, put tremendous effort into trying to get older masters to bend and yield to new designs and high-end aesthetics, often with the caveat that they then remain secret to avoid upsetting other suppliers and markets. But separate from this, you're more likely to be dealing with a "named" knife or shop, in which case the above issues come immediately into play. A few of those shops have a strong reputation for Westernized concerns over F&F and other properties, but many of them don't. For the ones that don't having someone like Kosuke (such as Jon or, more recently, Mark with his newer, non-line-cook lines) directing the suppliers to produce specific products with specific aesthetics makes all the difference, but it also makes "naming" the knife and/or establishing its lineage over time (and whether it is consistent) extremely difficult. Such as in the case of Jon's knives...I wouldn't doubt he's got some complicated contracts that are more shop-based than smith- or sharpener- based for several lines, especially when those lines use a variety of steels or finishes.

[J david]

Tesshu line of blue and white steel knives are very reasonably priced Shiraki offerings. I've only owned one, but the grind was quite good and much like some of the Kono Fujiyama knives. The difference is the Fujiyamas have a MUCH higher level of fit and finish. This is a lot of what you pay for in a Fujiyama and the like - not necessarily the forging.

[Organized]

I’m aware of the various price points for Shirakis work. From dirt cheap tesshu, to high end honyaki and fujiyama in between.
What’s interesting is I’m not so sure Shiraki cares as much about the secrecy as the brands might. He did after all just voluntarily out himself for making kagekiyos.
I personally prefer evaluating knives on the basis of how it performs and works for me. Ultimately that means I’m buying the brands vision for said knife.
The which knife shiraki makes is actually not important to me but I know this stuff is important to others, and since shiraki didn’t mind openly admitting this I don’t mind sharing said information

[Organized]

Out of curiosity, what are these “new designs and high end aesthetics” that people seem to think are unique only to Fujiyamas?

[J david]

Share away! I always like to know. I understand the delicate relationship between craftsmen, suppliers, and retailers but I am always hesitant to spend more than ~$200 for a knife where the retailer withholds the craftsmen identity. As a collector, I like to know as much about what I'm collecting as I possibly can. The point I was trying to make is, unless the blacksmith is making his own special damascus, tamahagane, etc., much of the price comes from what happens after the forging. This is also true for honyaki knives, as they are typically very highly finished. It's not all just because they are more difficult to make and the failure rate is higher.

[salemj]

Out of curiosity, what are these “new designs and high end aesthetics” that people seem to think are unique only to Fujiyamas?

Oh, sorry, I didn't mean "unique to" in terms of "just" the Fujiyamas...I think this logic extends far beyond one brand and includes most brands that use the traditional Sakai method of teamwork that fulfills designs dictated by outsiders. But in terms of that line/Konosuke, I guess I was actually thinking of recent new lines (MM, HM, HM honyaki), which are apparently unique enough to merit new equipment purchases by the sharper as well as several rounds of prototypes and back-and-forth between the makers and Kosuke (all publically reported), which, to me, implies that the things being done are new enough that various "masters" still have to practice them. With the older lines, the F&F of at least half the stock of Fujiyamas was nothing short of class-defining, essentially matching the level of many custom makers costing 2-5 times as much; as for profiles, that is harder to describe, but I think I was getting at Kosuke's involvement in maintaining a relatively consistent "Konosuke" style profile across the various lines and makers, as well as using Mark's design for the highly regarded Funayuki-gyuto profile.

I'm not big on keeping track of smiths, btw. That is part of the reason why I have a reflex. I feel strongly that even knives like a "Takeda" are actually the result of a dedicated and changing team (and that these changes often occur much more frequently and with much less transparency than we think, especially in terms of "rotations" of duties within these shops), and this becomes even more true for lines like Masakage and Takayuki (and Konosuke, etc), even when we know the "smith" (the smith does some of the work, but we all know a lot is left to others even when a name is attached). For this reason, I also put a LOT of stock in a given brand/vision, and even storefront, and much less into single names. My sense is that many of these smiths, even after they have international reputations, still do not consider themselves to be "creative" artists so much as "artisans," by which I mean they would routinely emphasize craft over creativity and design.

[salemj]

FYI, Tosho lists the blacksmith for Konosuke's VG10 line as K. Shiraki. I guess this is where that bit got stuck in my head...

[ChipB]

FYI, Tosho lists the blacksmith for Konosuke's VG10 line as K. Shiraki. I guess this is where that bit got stuck in my head...

You're right Joe. Those are Shiraki VG10s. The line is offered elsewhere, including local Japanese outlets, who also identify the smith as Shiraki.

[salemj]

I assume Mark’s Konos are the same too since they are also Damascus vg10.

[ChipB]

I assume Mark’s Konos are the same too since they are also Damascus vg10.

Yeah, I'd suspect that to be the case.

[Chicagohawkie]

FYI, Tosho lists the blacksmith for Konosuke's VG10 line as K. Shiraki. I guess this is where that bit got stuck in my head...

You're right Joe. Those are Shiraki VG10s. The line is offered elsewhere, including local Japanese outlets, who also identify the smith as Shiraki.

Chip, FYI Shiraki owns his forging shop and he has apprentices working under him. All knives out of the Shiraki forge are Shiraki knives, weather or not he actually forged them. Shiraki was Ill for the better part of last year and did not forge at all for a long period of time, his apprentices forged what they could but they were not skilled enough to do the Honyakis and some of the more difficult San Mai work. Shiraki isn’t a spring chicken anymore and I suspect with his aging that he is more overseeing than producing.

[ChipB]

FYI, Tosho lists the blacksmith for Konosuke's VG10 line as K. Shiraki. I guess this is where that bit got stuck in my head...

You're right Joe. Those are Shiraki VG10s. The line is offered elsewhere, including local Japanese outlets, who also identify the smith as Shiraki.

Chip, FYI Shiraki owns his forging shop and he has apprentices working under him. All knives out of the Shiraki forge are Shiraki knives, weather or not he actually forged them. Shiraki was Ill for the better part of last year and did not forge at all for a long period of time, his apprentices forged what they could but they were not skilled enough to do the Honyakis and some of the more difficult San Mai work. Shiraki isn’t a spring chicken anymore and I suspect with his aging that he is more overseeing than producing.

Interesting, some good insight!