Help me build the ultimate roll

[anthonyc]

Hi everyone!

I am looking to build the ultimate roll. One collection of knives that can handle any task, has a variety of steels, handles, profiles and finishes. One that will last a lifetime and i can pass down through my family and inspire my kids to cook one day.

Im thinking a 6 ish knife set eg:

Sujihiki
240 gyuto
180 gyuto
Nakiri
Honezuki
Petty

And with a variety of steels and handle types and grinds. eg a western handled stainless like a 180 r2 takamura migaki gyuto could compliment a takeda stainless clad aogami super 240 gyuto along with a wa handled masakage yuki honezuki. Or a laser profile like the konosuke HD2 could be thrown in the mix.

The goal is to have everything: wa / western handles, different finishes, different profiles and grinds, different steels and handle any cooking task. I want this set to become an heirloom.

Help me build it! (Mark or steve would appreciate your opinions too, would love to know what makes up your personal rolls!)

1)Pro or home cook?

Home, but it has been my main hobby for more than a decade. The career i wish i chose

2)What kind of knife do you want? (Gyuto, Santuko, Petty, Paring, Sujihiki, etc.)

As above

3) What size knife do you want?

As above

4)How much do you want to spend?

i would acquire the collection slowly, and also for the sake of the exercise lets ignore cost

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?

As above

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?

Like good iterations of both styles

7)What are your main knife/knives now?

Tojiro DP3 gyuto 210 and shun premier santoku

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?

Good to excellent

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?

Straight chopper but will rock occasionally depending on knife and product

10)Do you know how to sharpen?

Yes. mainly use a 1000 / 6000 stones

[ken123]

Good luck.

---
Ken

[salemj]

I started with a mentality like this. Two things:

1) Know your own technique and cooking style;
2) Match the above with the specific uses of each knife.

That may seem obvious, but it isn't. For example, since I know very little about you, I'll speak to me. If I were doing this, I'd think about it this way:

Suji: Primarily a special occasion knife. Edge retention doesn't matter, thickness doesn't matter much, would probably use for sushi and slicing big things. Options: ideal for W#1 or W#1, ideal for crazy finishes, ideal for Western handle if slicing raw ingredients often (and for balance since this is the longest blade).

240 Gyuto: No compromises, no finish considerations, no messing with steel. This is too important. Get what works best for all things.

180 Gyuto: This is your "playtime" gyuto or bunka. Go wild with finishes makers, etc.

Nakiri: As with 240 gyuto, although you have a little more room to play here because these are slightly taller. You'll want good retention, though, so prioritize that with steel choice.

Honesuki: Like the 180 gyuto, this is another toy. You'll mostly use it for specialized tasks. The key here is that it holds a very, very good edge; otherwise, you can really experiment all over the place, as "finishes" and grinds have less of an effect here than the ability to take a great edge and your own comfort with length and weight. I'd go Western handle here, just because it is a lot easier to deal with when working with raw poultry.

Petty: As with 240 gyuto. Don't mess around. Get something that will perform first and foremost. Then, based on what you actually use the knife for, tailor your options. Lots of citrus? Stainless only. Lots of in-hand work? Go shorter and sharper. Lots of on-the-board work? Go taller and more gyuto like. Each choice will narrow your options.

If you go through these with a couple stock makers, steels, and finishes in mind, you'll start to find the right "place" for each one. And don't forget: smaller knives are cheaper. If you're itching for a Takeda (say), go for where he shines and is cheapest, perhaps a bunka (in place of 180 or nakiri), or a honesuki. Same for your petty.

[Kit Craft]

I agree with Joe but I will play along and give you my ultimate list and even add some things you don't ask for to give you an idea of how this can differ wildly based on personal preference.

Misono Swedish carbon 300mm sujihiki
Tojiro 270mm bread knife (Mac is just as good)
Masamoto KS 240(250)mm gyuto
Takamura 180mm gyuto
Watanabe 165 or 180mm Nakiri
165mm Misono Swedish Yo deba (or a random Euro chef for splitting carcasses etc).
Rinkaku 150mm Honesuki (Kanehide or Masahiro are basically the same thing)
Tadatsuna 120mm stainless wa petty
Shun classic paring knife

That is a comprehensive list that can let me do about anything I want. The kicker? I can do 99% of the tasks of all of those knives with a 180-240mm gyuto. In fact, I normally do. I do use my honesuki a fair bit but I also raise and slaughter my own birds. But the rest of it is used so rarely.

[loco_food_guy]

This seems to me like such a personal decision to make especially if you are creating a knife roll that you plan to pass onto your children as an heirloom. In addition to that knives should reflect, in my opinion, your own style of cooking. Although it can be generic (as in the knife roll every student gets when they start culinary school), I wouldn't want to create a knife roll in such a generic manner. My suggestion although not being what you are asking is, since you aren't in a rush and price isn't a factor. Take your time and find knives that speak to you and fill your spepcific needs. I have a few different gyutos. I have a Mizuno Hontaren that is rock solid workhorse, I love it. Its also very reactive, it doesn't like avocados, potatoes or onions but its great for cutting meats and some heavier veggies. I have a Masamoto KS 300 mm I use this knife for all sorts of tasks and the length doesn't bother me at all. I can use it for very fine work as well as big jobs. This doesn't even go into aesthetics which is even more of a personal thing.I wont bother to go on and on although I could but I think I have made my point. If you narrow your list down to specific knives for each knife type that all appeal to you, then asking for opinions on those specific knives might be more helpful to you and easier to answer. I can give you my knife roll and I love it, you probably wouldn't.

[loco_food_guy]

Hi everyone!

I am looking to build the ultimate roll. One collection of knives that can handle any task, has a variety of steels, handles, profiles and finishes. One that will last a lifetime and i can pass down through my family and inspire my kids to cook one day.

Im thinking a 6 ish knife set eg:

Sujihiki
240 gyuto
180 gyuto
Nakiri
Honezuki
Petty


And with a variety of steels and handle types and grinds. eg a western handled stainless like a 180 r2 takamura migaki gyuto could compliment a takeda stainless clad aogami super 240 gyuto along with a wa handled masakage yuki honezuki. Or a laser profile like the konosuke HD2 could be thrown in the mix.

The goal is to have everything: wa / western handles, different finishes, different profiles and grinds, different steels and handle any cooking task. I want this set to become an heirloom.

Help me build it! (Mark or steve would appreciate your opinions too, would love to know what makes up your personal rolls!)

1)Pro or home cook?

Home, but it has been my main hobby for more than a decade. The career i wish i chose

2)What kind of knife do you want? (Gyuto, Santuko, Petty, Paring, Sujihiki, etc.)

As above

3) What size knife do you want?

As above

4)How much do you want to spend?

i would acquire the collection slowly, and also for the sake of the exercise lets ignore cost

5) Do you prefer all stainless, stainless clad over reactive carbon, or all reactive carbon construction?

As above

6)Do you prefer Western or Japanese handle?

Like good iterations of both styles

7)What are your main knife/knives now?

Tojiro DP3 gyuto 210 and shun premier santoku

8)Are your knife skills excellent, good, fair?

Good to excellent

9)What cutting techniques do you prefer? Are you a rocker, chopper or push/pull cutter?

Straight chopper but will rock occasionally depending on knife and product

10)Do you know how to sharpen?

Yes. mainly use a 1000 / 6000 stones

It reminds me of the Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy. What is the answer to the ultimate question? 42!!!

[jmcnelly85]

Don’t forget a beater. Every roll needs a shtf knife. That and a bread knife and your roll should cover everything.

[jbart65]

I think you should break it down and add one knife at a time.

I'd wait on the Suji and honesuki unless you carve meats and break down chickens a LOT. I don't have a suji since I only cook roasts a few times a year. My $25 Mercer is fine for that.

I do have a $65 Kanehide honesuki that I use a fair amount since I buy whole chicken every week. But I wouldn't spend a lot of get a pass-me-down for that.

As jmcnelly noted, you need a beater. I use a Messermeister Stealth Elite. Your DP might fit if it doesn't chip.

Starting with the gyuto, not sure I'd go Takeda. Some love, some don't. I found it hard to sharpen.

I wouldn't have a laser like an HD2 as my main knife (one in stock now with custom handle). Some do, but I favor a "midhorse" knife as my No. 1.

I am a big fan of Kanehiro, either the ginsan or AS. What I call refined rustic. Excellent all-round profile, a knife that can rock, push and chop.

Saji ginsan is a an elegant all-rounder.

Sukenari makes a lot of great knives at the high end.

It's not really expensive, but the Yahiko Nashiji is an elegant knife with one of the best chopping profiles on CKTG.

[Kit Craft]

The DP is pretty tough. Mine has decapitated a few rabbits in its day. It will micro chip though. But even a 'soft' FKH will micro roll under the same torture. If it were me I'd still want something more robust as a beater.

[salemj]

A few additions:

You mentioned in your original post that you were going to collect these over time, and JBart highlights this is a good idea (I of course concur). I'd strongly recommend that you follow his further advice and begin with the 240 gyuto. I disagree about his laser comment. . I think a laser and a beater can handle just about everything in the home kitchen, but that is me.

In fact, I'd pick the HD over the KS for you, despite Kit's comment. I think the KS is a great knife, but I've tried it and passed, and JBart has owned one and sold. I think it is a great fit for lots of people, but I'm not sure if it is a great fit in this situation, especially since you want a lot of variety throughout the collection. It also sounds like of all of the "variety and options," you're definitely least interested in all-reactive knives.

I'll add that it is easy for people to discourage your goals here, but I actually think your approach is like a lot of us here. You're just stating it up-front, but you admit it will be a slow game that may change along the way (especially in regards to budget). You may find you get much better advice if you ask a question about one knife at a time, even if the goal is to acquire a kit. This is what I try to get at above: if you know you want/need certain qualities from each knife, use that to narrow down the options for anyone of them and, and start there. I'd start with the 240, since that is the most open-ended, but also the most important (and strict): it can be anything, so long as it performs well and acts like a perfect extension of your hand. Use that thread to figure out what that means for you (with the help of others) and by providing a few more details (height preference? handle preference for the big gyuto specifically? weight preference?).

You'll get much better replies. Then, once you pick that knife (say, a Kurosaki R2 hammered finish laser), you know that for the next knife, you may want to shy away from a stainless hammered finish laser and perhaps head toward a KU finished SS-clad steel, like a Koiski bunka or something. And so on.

So, even though you are already thinking one step at a time, actually posting that way will lead to better feedback.

[Kalaeb]

Right... Believe it or not recommendations actually take a fair amount of time. That's the reason I don't make a lot of recommendations. Looking at six of them was just too much from me so I opted not to make any. Your list is expansive as is your criteria. I was just going to play eenie meenie miney mo on the website but I think you can do that just as easily as I can.

Narrow your criteria and tell us what you really enjoy and we can make a more thoughtful recommendation.

[Kit Craft]

A few additions:



In fact, I'd pick the HD over the KS for you, despite Kit's comment. I think the KS is a great knife, but I've tried it and passed, and JBart has owned one and sold. I think it is a great fit for lots of people, but I'm not sure if it is a great fit in this situation, especially since you want a lot of variety throughout the collection. It also sounds like of all of the "variety and options," you're definitely least interested in all-reactive knives.

I did not mean to imply that a single knife in that list was a recommendation but rather the exact kit that I have in my kitchen. My point was that it is a very personal thing and that many of those knife types are not even needed by a home cook.

As an aside I think the HD + Beater would be a great combo. I would reach for my KS if I had no beater before my HD but I would reach for my Misono before either of them...

[Lepus]

My biggest suggestion apart from what has been said is to be ready to buy and perhaps sell a handful of 240mm gyutos. What has been said about picking a gyuto to start is good advice, but this should ideally be the knife you use more than anything else and is also the knife profile with perhaps the more variety in terms of grind styles, steels, and profiles. Without actually trying multiple gyutos you will not be able to make informed decisions with regard to grind style, profile, length, weight, height, and to some degree steel.

This may sound expensive, because it is, and it may sound like it could overlap, because it does. But the knife profile you are most likely to use 70-90% of the time should get more of your budget and consideration. To be honest, if I was making such a set I would personally trade the honesuki and nakiri on your list for a second gyuto because they can vary so much. My top three or four most used knives of all time are all gyutos and chef knives, then two sujihikis for carving stations the loles of which you are unlikely to need to man, then more gyutos.

[Kit Craft]

My biggest suggestion apart from what has been said is to be ready to buy and perhaps sell a handful of 240mm gyutos. What has been said about picking a gyuto to start is good advice, but this should ideally be the knife you use more than anything else and is also the knife profile with perhaps the more variety in terms of grind styles, steels, and profiles. Without actually trying multiple gyutos you will not be able to make informed decisions with regard to grind style, profile, length, weight, height, and to some degree steel.

This may sound expensive, because it is, and it may sound like it could overlap, because it does. But the knife profile you are most likely to use 70-90% of the time should get more of your budget and consideration. To be honest, if I was making such a set I would personally trade the honesuki and nakiri on your list for a second gyuto because they can vary so much. My top three or four most used knives of all time are all gyutos and chef knives, then two sujihikis for carving stations the loles of which you are unlikely to need to man, then more gyutos.

There is so much wisdom in this post. Wisdom that I should have listed to better myself from the start, lol. I have been down this road, am still on this road and all of this has proven true for me even if I tried to go against the grain. It took me a long time and a lot of gyutos in many shapes, sizes and grinds to figure out my preference. Just a few months ago you could not convince me to pick up a 210 gyuto let alone a 240 and my go to is 251mm now...At the same time I always have a 180mm gyuto at my fingertips as well.

[jbart65]

Without actually trying multiple gyutos you will not be able to make informed decisions with regard to grind style, profile, length, weight, height, and to some degree steel.

This may sound expensive, because it is, and it may sound like it could overlap, because it does. But the knife profile you are most likely to use 70-90% of the time should get more of your budget and consideration. To be honest, if I was making such a set I would personally trade the honesuki and nakiri on your list for a second gyuto because they can vary so much. My top three or four most used knives of all time are all gyutos and chef knives, then two sujihikis for carving stations the loles of which you are unlikely to need to man, then more gyutos.

Lepus is correct. Early on I realized there was too much variety in Japanese knives to find the Golden Child in just a few purchases.

The process to discover what I liked most did cost a pretty penny and even after buying or using 75 knives I can still get surprised.

You don’t have to buy that many to find what you like, but research and ask and try a handful out. Sell the ones you don’t want in the classifieds. You will lose a bit of money on most resales, but it keeps final price tag down.

Generally I’d avoid fully carbon masterworks as hand-me-downs. Too expensive and require more care. Just get some really good knives that perform well but don’t cost a Brinks truck.

Some of my favorites are the Tanaka Sekiso, Yahiko Nashiji and the Kanehiro AS. The Sekiso and Kanehiro have great all-round profiles and the Yahiko Nashiji is more of a push cutter.

The Sekiso is fully reactive, but a stainless clad version can be found elsewhere. Kanehiro and Yahiko are stainless clad. All three are fairly robust.

The Masakage Koishi is a splendid knife, but it’s very thin at the edge and thus a tool for those with excellent technique. The Shibata AS is the best laser I have used - I laughed the first time I cut with it.

Another fav, long out of stock, is the Kurosaki AS laser.

I am a nakiri devotee, by the way, but I’d focus on gyutos first. See the following thread for pros and cons of owning a nakiri.

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