Makoto vs Masakage

We encourage you to post your questions about kitchen knives here. We can give you help choosing a knife.
Post Reply
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

More specifically

Makoto 240mm w#2 Gyuto https://www.chefknivestogo.com/mawh2gy24.html

VS

The Yuki 240mm w#2 Gyuto
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/mayugy24.html
&
The Mizu 240mm b#2 Gyuto
https://www.chefknivestogo.com/mamigy24.html

It appears these all have the same blade shape, geometry and are really an apples to apples comparison (minus the b#2 mizu). The consensus from different forums is the Makoto is a killer knife. Appears to have a all around nicer handle

So what would make one lean towards one over the others?
Bensbites
Posts: 2588
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:42 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Has thanked: 342 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Contact:

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by Bensbites »

When I asked a similar question, people where comparing the makoto to Koishi. I have the makoto and love it.
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

Bensbites wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:42 am When I asked a similar question, people where comparing the makoto to Koishi. I have the makoto and love it.
😳😳😳 DAAAANGGGG!!!! 😳😳😳

Now are they really an apples to apples comparison? Similar profile, grind & everything?

I was originally looking to buy the Yuki and desired to do some research and see what else is out there. Kind of not seeing any reason not to go with the Makoto now.... even with the Yuki on sale....
nakneker
Posts: 2359
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2018 8:37 am
Location: Taylor, Az
Has thanked: 185 times
Been thanked: 142 times

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by nakneker »

I have the Makato 240, same knife your asking about. The video attached to the link describes the knife well, I see these knives going up in price. The F&F is screaming for the price, the grind is really nice on mine, I see very little imperfections when I hold it with some reflective light on it, it performs well in my little world of a homecook. BTW, I bought the walnut Saya that CKTG offers for that knife and it’s compliments it well, I’m very happy with that.

I’ve only had one Yuki, but it was a Nakiri. Excellent knife too but hard to give you any feedback on your question of comparing Gyutos. I know forum member Kit Craft has a Yuki Gyuto and speaks highly of it, he’s a nice guy and happy to share what he knows.
“The goal is to die with memories, not dreams.”
Bensbites
Posts: 2588
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2017 7:42 pm
Location: Massachusetts
Has thanked: 342 times
Been thanked: 247 times
Contact:

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by Bensbites »

CacahuateSommelier wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:48 am
Bensbites wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:42 am When I asked a similar question, people where comparing the makoto to Koishi. I have the makoto and love it.
😳😳😳 DAAAANGGGG!!!! 😳😳😳

Now are they really an apples to apples comparison? Similar profile, grind & everything?

I was originally looking to buy the Yuki and desired to do some research and see what else is out there. Kind of not seeing any reason not to go with the Makoto now.... even with the Yuki on sale....
The steels are different between the koishi and the makoto. . AS vs white, the grinds and profile are similar. Looking for the thread.

Edit: I found the thread I started. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5105&hilit=Wide+bevel
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

Bensbites wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 12:57 pm
CacahuateSommelier wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:48 am
Bensbites wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 11:42 am When I asked a similar question, people where comparing the makoto to Koishi. I have the makoto and love it.
😳😳😳 DAAAANGGGG!!!! 😳😳😳

Now are they really an apples to apples comparison? Similar profile, grind & everything?

I was originally looking to buy the Yuki and desired to do some research and see what else is out there. Kind of not seeing any reason not to go with the Makoto now.... even with the Yuki on sale....
The steels are different between the koishi and the makoto. . AS vs white, the grinds and profile are similar. Looking for the thread.

Edit: I found the thread I started. viewtopic.php?f=2&t=5105&hilit=Wide+bevel
Completely understand the steel difference.... I’m a home cook so that really doesn’t matter to me as I LOVE TO SHARPEN

Thanks for the link... time to read!
salemj
Posts: 3707
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:27 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by salemj »

You are aware of the different but VERY CLOSELY RELATED aspects of these knives, right? In terms of the Brothers Kurosaki and their teachers/heritage and trade partners in the village, Kato, Saji, and Anyru?

What I mean is that you should really try to EXAGGERATE the differences here rather than assume that one knife is a cheaper version or adaptation of another. These smiths learn, train, and work together at various times, so they share a lot in terms of craft. What that means is that the small differences are very deliberate, and that price often reflects experience (for whatever that is worth). I happen to like that the Makoto is kinda the new one on the seen as a "brand name," even though he's been working with his brother and others for many years. This is probably the main reason why his knives are cheaper, but you should also appreciate that this means he really does have less experience with his own, very unique style of knife (relative to the others). It also means that, while there are similarities between these knives, someone with a good deal of experience would probably suggest that an Anyru feels very different from a Yo Kurosaki in most cases and with most lines. I sure would, even though I have very little experience in this regard!

I haven't used Makoto's knives, but the grinds are appreciably different from everything I've seen and read from this group otherwise. So, while you might consider them an "apples to apples" comparison - and this does make sense to me at first glance for sure - I would emphasize again that the way to make a good decisions is to actually understand, appreciate, and exaggerate their differences in terms of the individual lines, their smiths, and their design, rather than thinking. The most obvious way to do this is to focus hard on the grind type, height, and geometry and related subtleties, and not to focus on price, steel, or cosmetics, all of which are secondary in terms of differences for these smiths (since they all seem to play with all types of cosmetics).

Just some ideas to add to the mix!
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

salemj wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:03 pm You are aware of the different but VERY CLOSELY RELATED aspects of these knives, right? In terms of the Brothers Kurosaki and their teachers/heritage and trade partners in the village, Kato, Saji, and Anyru?

What I mean is that you should really try to EXAGGERATE the differences here rather than assume that one knife is a cheaper version or adaptation of another. These smiths learn, train, and work together at various times, so they share a lot in terms of craft. What that means is that the small differences are very deliberate, and that price often reflects experience (for whatever that is worth). I happen to like that the Makoto is kinda the new one on the seen as a "brand name," even though he's been working with his brother and others for many years. This is probably the main reason why his knives are cheaper, but you should also appreciate that this means he really does have less experience with his own, very unique style of knife (relative to the others). It also means that, while there are similarities between these knives, someone with a good deal of experience would probably suggest that an Anyru feels very different from a Yo Kurosaki in most cases and with most lines. I sure would, even though I have very little experience in this regard!

I haven't used Makoto's knives, but the grinds are appreciably different from everything I've seen and read from this group otherwise. So, while you might consider them an "apples to apples" comparison - and this does make sense to me at first glance for sure - I would emphasize again that the way to make a good decisions is to actually understand, appreciate, and exaggerate their differences in terms of the individual lines, their smiths, and their design, rather than thinking. The most obvious way to do this is to focus hard on the grind type, height, and geometry and related subtleties, and not to focus on price, steel, or cosmetics, all of which are secondary in terms of differences for these smiths (since they all seem to play with all types of cosmetics).

Just some ideas to add to the mix!
Well explained!!! And in the short answer… No! I had no idea about the history or anything of that sort. From my perspective I don’t know nearly enough to be able to appreciate the subtle intricacies of what makes each of the knives different… And with no offense intended whatsoever, At this particular point in my learning curve & to my pocketbook, I really don’t care.... all I’m looking for is the best knife to complete the tasks in which I am trying to complete at the best price.... but for someone who has the ability to try all these knives out and really appreciate the subtle differences, it must truly be a joy to experience (something I aspire to be able to do one day). It’s just not a privilege I have at this point
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

Also @salemj.... I would love if you could exaggerate the differences so I can make an educated decision on my purchase
salemj
Posts: 3707
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:27 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by salemj »

No offense taken at all—I didn't mean to pressure or assume, either. I guess I was just trying to help steer you towards a particular way of evaluating the blades and their differences.

Some people really prioritize cosmetics, and that is TOTALLY FINE—I see no issue. But your OP gave me the sense that it wasn't quite so simple as "liking the look" of these three knives since they actually have quite different aesthetics/features. And your recent response puts a lot more emphasis on the importance of "getting the job done" for a cheap price, which is a particularly precise request.

I'm one of several forum members who really thinks performance is primarily grind-related. This doesn't mean one grind is unequivocally better—what it means is that, depending on your technique - you can usually predict 90% or so of how a knife is going to perform if you know what its grind is like. The knives you are considering have very different grinds from what I understand. So, if you have an idea of what type of grind you like OR how you like a knife to cut "to complete the task" in the kitchen, I might be able to give you a better sense of which one might work best for you...and WHY, based on physical properties. Other members probably can, too. Some of us are quite keen on trying to help make recommendations this way, which is why the "normal" recommendation sheet questions (see Steve's "please read this first") includes questions related to technique and other preferences. The point is: price is a much more dependable metric for fit and finish than it is for performance, and - in fact - the higher you go in price, the more performance is based on...you guessed it: what kind of grind you like, and not the overall abilities of the knife itself!

So, the first and most basic question is: how do you use a knife? Pro or home use? Chopper, glider, or all techniques? Do you sharpen yourself? Is edge retention and major factor? Are you heavy-handed, or do you want something light and very graceful in the cut?
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

salemj wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:27 pm No offense taken at all—I didn't mean to pressure or assume, either. I guess I was just trying to help steer you towards a particular way of evaluating the blades and their differences.

Some people really prioritize cosmetics, and that is TOTALLY FINE—I see no issue. But your OP gave me the sense that it wasn't quite so simple as "liking the look" of these three knives since they actually have quite different aesthetics/features. And your recent response puts a lot more emphasis on the importance of "getting the job done" for a cheap price, which is a particularly precise request.

I'm one of several forum members who really thinks performance is primarily grind-related. This doesn't mean one grind is unequivocally better—what it means is that, depending on your technique - you can usually predict 90% or so of how a knife is going to perform if you know what its grind is like. The knives you are considering have very different grinds from what I understand. So, if you have an idea of what type of grind you like OR how you like a knife to cut "to complete the task" in the kitchen, I might be able to give you a better sense of which one might work best for you...and WHY, based on physical properties. Other members probably can, too. Some of us are quite keen on trying to help make recommendations this way, which is why the "normal" recommendation sheet questions (see Steve's "please read this first") includes questions related to technique and other preferences. The point is: price is a much more dependable metric for fit and finish than it is for performance, and - in fact - the higher you go in price, the more performance is based on...you guessed it: what kind of grind you like, and not the overall abilities of the knife itself!

So, the first and most basic question is: how do you use a knife? Pro or home use? Chopper, glider, or all techniques? Do you sharpen yourself? Is edge retention and major factor? Are you heavy-handed, or do you want something light and very graceful in the cut?
I just answered that thing for another post looking for “lasers” .... in this knife I am looking for a workhorse over laser.... but don’t want wedging on carrots or potatoes. Kinda thinnest workhorse... also looking to break down whole primal of ribeye and whatnot
salemj
Posts: 3707
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:27 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by salemj »

Sweet. That other post plus this helps.

First off, I think the Mizu has a plastic ferrule. So that's out, right?

Second, based on things you say there and here, I'm wondering if you've checked out the Anryu. I personally do not like the knife, but it is probably the #1 recommendation for an all-purpose "workhorse" for a budget price that has some character...otherwise, I think the Richmond/Kohetsu HAP40 is probably the top recommendation for people who want something a little closer to a mid-weight (but still thinner) blade. You seem to already have something in HAP40 (a petty)...perhaps this causes you to lean one way or the other...

The point is, most Kohetsu knives are designed to be used hard (this is one of Mark's lines and he tends to cater to the demands of professional chefs). So even when they look and are described as "lasers" by some, they are still much more robust at the edge than something like a Konosuke HD, and even than something like a Yuki in some circumstances. A Yuki will be thicker at the spine, though, and will feel much more "handmade" (but you seem to prefer low price and purpose over this aspect). Lots of people like the Yuki, but I remain less convinced that every rendition of this knife actually lives up to its best renditions.

If all of my thinking is right so far, I would encourage you to check out the Anryu, the Kohetsu HAP40 and the Makoto (on the forum and on the site). I've read good things about the Makoto, but he is experimenting with grinds that are easy to get wrong—I can imagine not every one of his blades performs in the way you want...some probably feel much more like "lasers" and also probably have some separation and release issues. Beyond these, I think a Sukenari might work well for you, or even a Harukaze (I see someone recommended this in the "laser" post, but without using it, my guess is that this knife would take anything a home cook could throw at it with aplomb.)

One thing I will say about the Anryu: I think it really works best for people who have slightly weightier, more aggressive and faster techniques. You describe yourself as being a home cook and not a fast or rapid chopper, and many of your current knives are lighter and smaller. For these reasons, although I think you should research the Anryu given its reputation as a "workhorse," I'm not convinced it is a good fit, especially given your interest in the Makoto, which is likely a thinner, lighter blade with a much higher grind and thinner geometry throughout. Furthermore, your love of sharpening (yay!) means that the white steel will be a non-issue (one positive of the Anryu is its excellent edge retention, but that should not factor into your decision as a home cook who also loves the stones).

If you wanted to go up in price and you really wanted not just a workhorse, but a "no-nonsense, no-worry" blade, you could also go full-stainless and get a Saji ginsan. These have a reputation for being tougher knives that still perform well. They are also oversized: you would probably have more than enough blade with an oversized 210. Again, the Saji blade is going to share many of the Takefu village characteristics of your three OP choices in terms of design.

There are so many options in the 150-300 price range...you should have many more people chiming in if they see you are open to all sorts of suggestions!
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

salemj wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:13 pm Sweet. That other post plus this helps.

First off, I think the Mizu has a plastic ferrule. So that's out, right?

Second, based on things you say there and here, I'm wondering if you've checked out the Anryu. I personally do not like the knife, but it is probably the #1 recommendation for an all-purpose "workhorse" for a budget price that has some character...otherwise, I think the Richmond/Kohetsu HAP40 is probably the top recommendation for people who want something a little closer to a mid-weight (but still thinner) blade. You seem to already have something in HAP40 (a petty)...perhaps this causes you to lean one way or the other...

The point is, most Kohetsu knives are designed to be used hard (this is one of Mark's lines and he tends to cater to the demands of professional chefs). So even when they look and are described as "lasers" by some, they are still much more robust at the edge than something like a Konosuke HD, and even than something like a Yuki in some circumstances. A Yuki will be thicker at the spine, though, and will feel much more "handmade" (but you seem to prefer low price and purpose over this aspect). Lots of people like the Yuki, but I remain less convinced that every rendition of this knife actually lives up to its best renditions.

If all of my thinking is right so far, I would encourage you to check out the Anryu, the Kohetsu HAP40 and the Makoto (on the forum and on the site). I've read good things about the Makoto, but he is experimenting with grinds that are easy to get wrong—I can imagine not every one of his blades performs in the way you want...some probably feel much more like "lasers" and also probably have some separation and release issues. Beyond these, I think a Sukenari might work well for you, or even a Harukaze (I see someone recommended this in the "laser" post, but without using it, my guess is that this knife would take anything a home cook could throw at it with aplomb.)

One thing I will say about the Anryu: I think it really works best for people who have slightly weightier, more aggressive and faster techniques. You describe yourself as being a home cook and not a fast or rapid chopper, and many of your current knives are lighter and smaller. For these reasons, although I think you should research the Anryu given its reputation as a "workhorse," I'm not convinced it is a good fit, especially given your interest in the Makoto, which is likely a thinner, lighter blade with a much higher grind and thinner geometry throughout. Furthermore, your love of sharpening (yay!) means that the white steel will be a non-issue (one positive of the Anryu is its excellent edge retention, but that should not factor into your decision as a home cook who also loves the stones).

If you wanted to go up in price and you really wanted not just a workhorse, but a "no-nonsense, no-worry" blade, you could also go full-stainless and get a Saji ginsan. These have a reputation for being tougher knives that still perform well. They are also oversized: you would probably have more than enough blade with an oversized 210. Again, the Saji blade is going to share many of the Takefu village characteristics of your three OP choices in terms of design.

There are so many options in the 150-300 price range...you should have many more people chiming in if they see you are open to all sorts of suggestions!
That is one hell of a reply! Thank you very much for putting the effort into helping me out… I will try to answer and everything to the best of my ability

First let me address “workhorse” which in really doesn’t apply to me as I’m not going to be putting a knife through what anybody in the industry will, so I could likely make a laser work for myself as a “workhorse” If I wanted to (lol) if you get what I mean. My purpose in putting now is that I’m looking to buy two knives one is an absolute laser the other is a larger knife 240 mm plus… Both hopefully in the 150 to 250 range each

I’m not a huge fan of the edge shape on the Anryu... to much rock... I’d prefer flatter

With response to the call Hohetsu hap40, I know it’s going to sound stupid, but I would honestly prefer a knife I could sharpen more often And to a much more extreme edge like the white steels I’ve been trying out lately... I can get the hat 40 really short but I never really have to sharpen it again which is a little bit of a bummer
salemj
Posts: 3707
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:27 pm
Location: British Columbia, Canada
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 528 times

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by salemj »

My pleasure. Have you checked out the Yoshimune W#1? It is pretty far from your OP, but for some reason it seems like you might really enjoy a knife like that. Plus, it would be a huge contrast from a more standard laser such as a Kono SS, HD, or W#2 while still offering really aggressive performance.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

salemj wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:33 pm My pleasure. Have you checked out the Yoshimune W#1? It is pretty far from your OP, but for some reason it seems like you might really enjoy a knife like that. Plus, it would be a huge contrast from a more standard laser such as a Kono SS, HD, or W#2 while still offering really aggressive performance.
Why you gotta point out shit that is OOS! Lol... looks really noce
Lepus
Posts: 4561
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:06 pm
Location: Durham, NC
Been thanked: 4 times

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by Lepus »

I think I'm the one who has drawn the most correlation between the Yuki and the Makoto white #2. I have the 240mm Yuki and 170mm Makoto santoku and they are closely related. They have similar grinds and steel. The biggest difference is that the Makoto's grind is more consistent for the length of the knife and runs a bit higher up the blade road. The handle on the Yuki is fine, even nice, but the handle on the Makoto is superb. Makoto Kurosaki used to work for the Yuki blacksmith shop and I would not be surprised to find out he ground both knives.

That said, I like the aesthetics and kanji on the Yuki much more. I would pay more for a hammered or clean finish and chiseled kanji on a Makoto that was otherwiae the same. I want to polish my Makoto, but don't want to wipe the kanji.

A lot of people have gotten Yukis they don't like. I can't say much to that because I like mine a great deal.
Last edited by Lepus on Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Jeff B
Posts: 14736
Joined: Fri Jan 27, 2017 5:59 pm
Location: Louisville, Kentucky
Has thanked: 1951 times
Been thanked: 2312 times

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by Jeff B »

A very flat knife with excellent performance and some heft that will also provide a stark contrast and complement to a laser. One of the best bang for the buck knives on the site. Gihei Blue #2 Gyuto https://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2gy24.html But also OOS right now. :D
If God wanted me to be a vegetarian he wouldn't have made animals taste so good.
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

Jeff B wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 7:01 pm A very flat knife with excellent performance and some heft that will also provide a stark contrast and complement to a laser. One of the best bang for the buck knives on the site. Gihei Blue #2 Gyuto https://www.chefknivestogo.com/gibl2gy24.html But also OOS right now. :D
Thanks... more stuff for me to really like & then be unable to buy 😂🤣😂
CacahuateSommelier
Posts: 256
Joined: Tue Apr 17, 2018 5:19 pm
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Makoto vs Masakage

Post by CacahuateSommelier »

Lepus wrote: Sun Apr 22, 2018 6:55 pm I think I'm the one who has drawn the most correlation between the Yuki and the Makoto white #2. I have the 240mm Yuki and 170mm Makoto santoku and they are closely related. They have similar grinds and steel. The biggest difference is that the Makoto's grind is more consistent for the length of the knife and runs a bit higher up the blade road. The handle on the Yuki is fine, even nice, but the handle on the Makoto is superb. Makoto Kurosaki used to work for the Yuki blacksmith shop and I would not be surprised to find out he ground both knives.

That said, I like the aesthetics and kanji on the Yuki much more. I would pay more for a hammered or clean finish and chiseled kanji on a Makoto that was otherwiae the same. I want to polish my Makoto, but don't want to wipe the kanji.

A lot of people have gotten Yukis they don't like. I can't say much to that because I like mine a great deal.
This is fantastic!!!! Thank you.... this really nailed the q on the head
Post Reply