240mm B#2 Honyaki Gyuto

[jacko9]

Hello people, I looking for suggestions for a B#2 steel Honyaki Gyuto. Where could I order such a knife and more importantly what should I consider before I spend my kids inheritance I've seen a 240 just sold on JNS a Jikko Mizo Honyaki Gyuto. He has a 210 Jikko Mizo Honyaki Gyuto but I have too many very nice 210 Gyuto's now and I'd like to get a 240 but, I'm a bit "clueless" and I'm asking for some suggestions. Why the B#2 instead of W#1 or 2 well in my limited experience the Blue paper steel holds a better edge at least in my Konosuke Fujiyama's. Thanks in advance.

Jack

[salemj]

Do you know what you want?

I'm very leery of honyaki gyutos (still)—and I do mean, very specifically, gyutos. I'm not sure which makers execute blades that are as good as or better than their other output. What I mean is, because honyaki are harder to make, with a higher fail rate, I am very suspicious that many of the gyutos have very conservative geometry, especially toward the tip, in order to avoid warping and distortion. This includes - especially - Shiraki and Ikeda renditions. The resultant knife is going to be so hard that it is very, very difficult to then grind it down to thin out the geometry to something closer to their other layered products, especially toward the tip. Other profiles, like yanagibas, have so much more spine by nature (and a wholly different geometry), that I do not think the have the same considerations.

If I were shopping for a honyaki to actually use day to day, my #1 criterion would be that I knew for certain that it has good geometry toward the tip. If you know of a maker/brand that delivers your own particular preferences, then how to get it can vary considerably, of course. But the first stop is knowing what to expect from the product.

If I had to buy blind, I might try Hitohira, which carries honyaki forged by Shiraki's shop fairly regularly (although more often in white steel). I also remain extremely curious about the very cool Nigara honyaki Mark is getting in that seem to sit around. In all cases, I would probably have a preference for B2 as well to start, but the honayki I have used are so freaking hard that I honestly would expect any white steel to hold an edge longer than, say, a Kono Fujiyama in B2 anyway, so you might also consider that. Beyond all of this, I'd respect the fact that many Japanese makers and users seem to prefer W#3 for honyaki. So again, that might be worth considering even though it goes against your initial preferences.

[Kalaeb]

Mizuno.

[jacko9]

Do you know what you want?

I'm very leery of honyaki gyutos (still)—and I do mean, very specifically, gyutos. I'm not sure which makers execute blades that are as good as or better than their other output. What I mean is, because honyaki are harder to make, with a higher fail rate, I am very suspicious that many of the gyutos have very conservative geometry, especially toward the tip, in order to avoid warping and distortion. This includes - especially - Shiraki and Ikeda renditions. The resultant knife is going to be so hard that it is very, very difficult to then grind it down to thin out the geometry to something closer to their other layered products, especially toward the tip. Other profiles, like yanagibas, have so much more spine by nature (and a wholly different geometry), that I do not think the have the same considerations.

If I were shopping for a honyaki to actually use day to day, my #1 criterion would be that I knew for certain that it has good geometry toward the tip. If you know of a maker/brand that delivers your own particular preferences, then how to get it can vary considerably, of course. But the first stop is knowing what to expect from the product.

If I had to buy blind, I might try Hitohira, which carries honyaki forged by Shiraki's shop fairly regularly (although more often in white steel). I also remain extremely curious about the very cool Nigara honyaki Mark is getting in that seem to sit around. In all cases, I would probably have a preference for B2 as well to start, but the honayki I have used are so freaking hard that I honestly would expect any white steel to hold an edge longer than, say, a Kono Fujiyama in B2 anyway, so you might also consider that. Beyond all of this, I'd respect the fact that many Japanese makers and users seem to prefer W#3 for honyaki. So again, that might be worth considering even though it goes against your initial preferences.

Thanks Joe, I can relate to the geometry difficulties with the honyaki process and while I do prefer blue steel my one experience with hard white steel if my T-F Gyuto in RcH 65-66 and that knife is very hefty. Yes I'm asking for opinions like yours and others to find that one craftsman who can produce a very nice geometry with all of the related issues. I figure that is why the price is so high on some of the ones I have seen. I guess I should have taken a better look at that Niagara when it's available.

[jacko9]

I noticed the https://www.chefknivestogo.com/jiwh3mihogy2.html on the store site. Anybody have any experience with this maker or this knife? I know it's not blue steel but, I'm still curious.

[gladius]

Mizuno.

---
Consider a DX B#1 instead. I picked up a Akitada Ao Hagane DX Series << B#1 gyuto which is an outstanding knife in every respect.

Here is what Master Mizuno says about them...

The Akitada Ao Hagane DX Series is the highest-grade of knives among Mizuno Tanrenjo large selections and is made using Hitachi Aogami #1 (Blue Steel No1; HRc. 62-63). Blue Steel No.1 Wa-Bocho (Japanese traditional-style knives) are rarely seen because the high Carbon content (1.30-1.40%) of the steel makes it difficult to work with. Blue Steel No.1 also contains greater amounts of Chromium (0.30 -0.50%) and Tungsten / Wolfram (1.50- 2.00%) than Blue Steel No.2, which form hard carbides in the steel and thus improve edge retention.

Mizuno Tanrenjo Ao Hagane DX knife is handcrafted and hand sharpened using traditional methods by Mizuno’s highly experienced and talented craftsmen and receive the utmost attention during each stage of production to ensure that no compromises are made.

Master Mizuno recommends Ao Hagane DX Knife with confidence due to the outstanding cutting performance, which equal to that of Honyaki knives.

Of course honyaki knives are also available...

https://japanesechefsknife.com/collecti ... -and-270mm

[jacko9]

Mizuno.

---
Consider a DX B#1 instead. I picked up a Akitada Ao Hagane DX Series << B#1 gyuto which is an outstanding knife in every respect.

Here is what Master Mizuno says about them...

The Akitada Ao Hagane DX Series is the highest-grade of knives among Mizuno Tanrenjo large selections and is made using Hitachi Aogami #1 (Blue Steel No1; HRc. 62-63). Blue Steel No.1 Wa-Bocho (Japanese traditional-style knives) are rarely seen because the high Carbon content (1.30-1.40%) of the steel makes it difficult to work with. Blue Steel No.1 also contains greater amounts of Chromium (0.30 -0.50%) and Tungsten / Wolfram (1.50- 2.00%) than Blue Steel No.2, which form hard carbides in the steel and thus improve edge retention.

Mizuno Tanrenjo Ao Hagane DX knife is handcrafted and hand sharpened using traditional methods by Mizuno’s highly experienced and talented craftsmen and receive the utmost attention during each stage of production to ensure that no compromises are made.

Master Mizuno recommends Ao Hagane DX Knife with confidence due to the outstanding cutting performance, which equal to that of Honyaki knives.

Of course honyaki knives are also available...

https://japanesechefsknife.com/collecti ... -and-270mm

Thanks gladius you're another person pointing to Mizuno Tankenjo and they do look very nice. I'll consider them as I look at what's out there.

[jacko9]

Do you know what you want?

I'm very leery of honyaki gyutos (still)—and I do mean, very specifically, gyutos. I'm not sure which makers execute blades that are as good as or better than their other output. What I mean is, because honyaki are harder to make, with a higher fail rate, I am very suspicious that many of the gyutos have very conservative geometry, especially toward the tip, in order to avoid warping and distortion. This includes - especially - Shiraki and Ikeda renditions. The resultant knife is going to be so hard that it is very, very difficult to then grind it down to thin out the geometry to something closer to their other layered products, especially toward the tip. Other profiles, like yanagibas, have so much more spine by nature (and a wholly different geometry), that I do not think the have the same considerations.

If I were shopping for a honyaki to actually use day to day, my #1 criterion would be that I knew for certain that it has good geometry toward the tip. If you know of a maker/brand that delivers your own particular preferences, then how to get it can vary considerably, of course. But the first stop is knowing what to expect from the product.

If I had to buy blind, I might try Hitohira, which carries honyaki forged by Shiraki's shop fairly regularly (although more often in white steel). I also remain extremely curious about the very cool Nigara honyaki Mark is getting in that seem to sit around. In all cases, I would probably have a preference for B2 as well to start, but the honayki I have used are so freaking hard that I honestly would expect any white steel to hold an edge longer than, say, a Kono Fujiyama in B2 anyway, so you might also consider that. Beyond all of this, I'd respect the fact that many Japanese makers and users seem to prefer W#3 for honyaki. So again, that might be worth considering even though it goes against your initial preferences.

Joe before I replied earlier the answer to your first question is no - I don't know what I want as of this time. I've acquired a lot of very nice knives in my addiction and this is just my latest "compulsion". We don't travel for pleasure since I did over 40 years of travel for work so buying nice kitchen cooking related products is my hobby of the current time.

Jack

[salemj]

Do you know what you want?

I'm very leery of honyaki gyutos (still)—and I do mean, very specifically, gyutos. I'm not sure which makers execute blades that are as good as or better than their other output. What I mean is, because honyaki are harder to make, with a higher fail rate, I am very suspicious that many of the gyutos have very conservative geometry, especially toward the tip, in order to avoid warping and distortion. This includes - especially - Shiraki and Ikeda renditions. The resultant knife is going to be so hard that it is very, very difficult to then grind it down to thin out the geometry to something closer to their other layered products, especially toward the tip. Other profiles, like yanagibas, have so much more spine by nature (and a wholly different geometry), that I do not think the have the same considerations.

If I were shopping for a honyaki to actually use day to day, my #1 criterion would be that I knew for certain that it has good geometry toward the tip. If you know of a maker/brand that delivers your own particular preferences, then how to get it can vary considerably, of course. But the first stop is knowing what to expect from the product.

If I had to buy blind, I might try Hitohira, which carries honyaki forged by Shiraki's shop fairly regularly (although more often in white steel). I also remain extremely curious about the very cool Nigara honyaki Mark is getting in that seem to sit around. In all cases, I would probably have a preference for B2 as well to start, but the honayki I have used are so freaking hard that I honestly would expect any white steel to hold an edge longer than, say, a Kono Fujiyama in B2 anyway, so you might also consider that. Beyond all of this, I'd respect the fact that many Japanese makers and users seem to prefer W#3 for honyaki. So again, that might be worth considering even though it goes against your initial preferences.

Joe before I replied earlier the answer to your first question is no - I don't know what I want as of this time. I've acquired a lot of very nice knives in my addiction and this is just my latest "compulsion". We don't travel for pleasure since I did over 40 years of travel for work so buying nice kitchen cooking related products is my hobby of the current time.

Jack

Thanks, Jack. That is helpful to know for me (and probably for others). It does seem like specific makers tend to make exclusive agreements with just 1-2 vendors for honyaki blades, so I think it is important to remember that "where to look/how to buy" has a very strong connect to "what maker" you might want to pursue. Other than that, I can't say more than I already have: since I haven't used many honyaki, a lot of my knowledge is just from yearning after one for 2-4 years and doing research during that time.

I am often particular about the size and shape of a knife. One thing I've learned about honyaki is that there is less choice in that respect: often, a maker of fine honyaki has a unique style, so even if you really love the quality and grinds, you may never find one you like in the right size (length, heel height, weight). If you're very flexible on all those fronts, then you have a major advantage. If, however, you want a very specific profile for such a major purchase, that might be something to mention so that people can consider that aspect, too.

For example, Ikeda 240s seem very consistent to me, with classic gyuto proportions (233x49 or so for a 240, with about a 2.75-3mm spine at the heel). They have very versatile profiles that do everything well. Although they seem to have very thin grinds, I would not describe them that way at all after close examination: they are thin at the edge, but not "thin grinds" per se. Shiraki honyaki knives seem to have similarly consistent characteristics, although I can't speak as much from detailed experience. Other people might be able to chime in on these types of details.

Finally, I'd second gladius above. I don't mean to talk you out of a honyaki at all, but I agree that you might consider whether the fundamental design is art or function. I'm sure there are many amazing honyaki knives out there, but if you have to fly blind and can't try it first or go custom with someone you know can really meet exact specifications (and expectations), you may enjoy a bespoke something else more. My yearning for a honyaki is virtually gone after all the research ended up with a major purchase that left me wanting. Now I'm more free to really enjoy how spectacular some more bespoke (but still traditional) knives are. More than this, my Bloodroot is supposedly "differentially treated" and monosteel, if not a "honyaki," and I can tell you it is one heck of a blade and that the repurposed granite saw steel it is made from it at least as good as any blue steel I've used in terms of taking and holding an edge during home use. (Unlike a traditional honyaki, the differential treatment has to do with softening the spine AFTER a full heat treatment of the blade, rather than using clay to alter the heat treatment of the spine at the same time as the whole blade is treated, but I suspect that the actual physical results are somewhat similar if less extreme.) Bloodroot has a lottery every month of blades with exact specifications and exacting fit and finish; otherwise, I think the waitlist is 3-4 years or so to create a knife to your own specifications down to every minute feature. So that might also be of interest...if you can wait that long!

[jacko9]

Joe - Since I'm turning 75 in a little while waiting 3-4 years is not in the cards (I might forget that I ordered it)

Right now my favorite cutting blade is my JNS Workhorse Kato 210mm Gyuto ( but I wish I had managed to get a 240) I just picked up a Kato KU 240 Gyuto but so far I have just admired it and haven't used it yet. I do have my second favorite knife my 3 year old Kono Fujiyama B#2 Gyuto and recently I picked up a return from Mark of a Kono Fuji GT 240 Blue #2 with the Khii Ebony handle and I'm just getting to know that knife a little (so far I like it but it seems light compared to mu older 210 Fuji). Sitting idle are my T-F 240 Nashiji Gyuto and my Kono HD2 240 Gyuto so you see I'm just playing around here looking for the "great experience". I did like the looks of the Mizuno Tanrenjo offerings and I hope they stay available until I can sort some of this out.

Thanks for any suggestions, they are appreciated,

Jack

[Kalaeb]

Jack, are you sold on Japanese Honyaki? NJ Steel Baron
makes a steel called W2 that is very similar to the Japanese blues which can be differentially hardened to give it that nice hardening line. Some of the western Smith's do a great job with it...I don't have a ton of experience with Japanese Honyaki, but can talk the western makers any day. All in you are likely looking at similar price point, if not a little cheaper. That and you can customize it any way you prefer...

[RonAZ]

Jack - If you are flexible, Shihan out of Santa Fe sometimes makes B2 Honyaki. He is obviously not Japanese but he trained under Ashi who was one of the top Honyaki smiths in Japan. He does not make them in quantity or advertise them on his website, I visited his forge last year and lucked into picking up a 180 B2 Honyaki gyuto. It's an excellent honyaki.
Ron Dillon

[jacko9]

Jack - If you are flexible, Shihan out of Santa Fe sometimes makes B2 Honyaki. He is obviously not Japanese but he trained under Ashi who was one of the top Honyaki smiths in Japan. He does not make them in quantity or advertise them on his website, I visited his forge last year and lucked into picking up a 180 B2 Honyaki gyuto. It's an excellent honyaki.
Ron Dillon

Thanks Ron, I'll check him out.

[jacko9]

Jack - If you are flexible, Shihan out of Santa Fe sometimes makes B2 Honyaki. He is obviously not Japanese but he trained under Ashi who was one of the top Honyaki smiths in Japan. He does not make them in quantity or advertise them on his website, I visited his forge last year and lucked into picking up a 180 B2 Honyaki gyuto. It's an excellent honyaki.
Ron Dillon

Thanks Ron, I'll check him out. I haven't been to Santa Fe for a while now and perhaps I can talk the wife into a vacation.

[Omega]

So... I personally wouldn't recommend Jikko. The blacksmithing on them is fine, but I've seen some real horror stories in the sharpening department. Honyaki is not only difficult to forge, but difficult to sharpen well, because its ALL core steel, and not soft cladding.

Because of the relative shortage of available honyaki smiths in Sakai, some shops placed MASSIVE orders to help put them in good graces with the shops. Over the past 18 months, Jikko has been fire-sale'ing them.. I sent them a direct email and was offered dealer pricing. That's why so many have been popping up on forum BSTs.
If you're Set on Jikko, I would FOR SURE recommend going with Mark though; his ability to quality control is going to be far better than most one-offs you see.

Mizuno has waxed and waned in popularity at times. I'll say, the blacksmith that does their B1 Suminagashi is NOT the same as who does their B2 Honyaki. I... personally am not the biggest fan of their Honyaki. So, especially for your first, I'd probably steer you away from them a bit. But! If someone from this forum really loves them, and what they say about them resonates with you, don't take anything I say as dogma.


Ashi is absolutely talented- though some of the reason people praise him so well is because of the total package you get with him. His forging AND his sharpening are very good. I would actually contend that, because there are blacksmiths who make Honyaki more frequently than Ashi, (like Shiraki, Togashi, or Ikeda) you might actually get a better forged blade from them. But Ashi's sharpening and polish are truly some of the best.
Sadly, getting one for under $2000 seems like a dream of yesteryear.


If you really like Kato WH, and Konosuke Fujiyama, I'd tend towards thinking you like especially hard blades. In that case, I'd recommend a Honyaki by Togashi.
There are many people that carry Togashi honyaki, but, if I were wanting to be sure of a good sharpening.... I'd go with Hitohira.
I wouldn't worry as much about the steel- (White 1, Blue 2, etc...) Togashi tends towards the hard end on All his knives.

And as far as sharpener- Hitohira uses pseudonyms for everyone... Which, is frustrating, but i understand why they do it. You'd have to kind of decide which way you want to go- if you want a wide bevel blade, similar to your Fujiyama, I'd say try the Kambei sharper. If you want one more like Ashi Honyaki, I'd try the Yohei sharpener.

[jacko9]

So... I personally wouldn't recommend Jikko. The blacksmithing on them is fine, but I've seen some real horror stories in the sharpening department. Honyaki is not only difficult to forge, but difficult to sharpen well, because its ALL core steel, and not soft cladding.

Because of the relative shortage of available honyaki smiths in Sakai, some shops placed MASSIVE orders to help put them in good graces with the shops. Over the past 18 months, Jikko has been fire-sale'ing them.. I sent them a direct email and was offered dealer pricing. That's why so many have been popping up on forum BSTs.
If you're Set on Jikko, I would FOR SURE recommend going with Mark though; his ability to quality control is going to be far better than most one-offs you see.

Mizuno has waxed and waned in popularity at times. I'll say, the blacksmith that does their B1 Suminagashi is NOT the same as who does their B2 Honyaki. I... personally am not the biggest fan of their Honyaki. So, especially for your first, I'd probably steer you away from them a bit. But! If someone from this forum really loves them, and what they say about them resonates with you, don't take anything I say as dogma.


Ashi is absolutely talented- though some of the reason people praise him so well is because of the total package you get with him. His forging AND his sharpening are very good. I would actually contend that, because there are blacksmiths who make Honyaki more frequently than Ashi, (like Shiraki, Togashi, or Ikeda) you might actually get a better forged blade from them. But Ashi's sharpening and polish are truly some of the best.
Sadly, getting one for under $2000 seems like a dream of yesteryear.


If you really like Kato WH, and Konosuke Fujiyama, I'd tend towards thinking you like especially hard blades. In that case, I'd recommend a Honyaki by Togashi.
There are many people that carry Togashi honyaki, but, if I were wanting to be sure of a good sharpening.... I'd go with Hitohira.
I wouldn't worry as much about the steel- (White 1, Blue 2, etc...) Togashi tends towards the hard end on All his knives.

And as far as sharpener- Hitohira uses pseudonyms for everyone... Which, is frustrating, but i understand why they do it. You'd have to kind of decide which way you want to go- if you want a wide bevel blade, similar to your Fujiyama, I'd say try the Kambei sharper. If you want one more like Ashi Honyaki, I'd try the Yohei sharpener.

Thank you Omega,

Thats a lot of information to process since I'm not at all familiar with the makers you're talking about so I'll need to do some more research. Thanks for the insight on sharpening and the >$2000 price tag is a bit of a gulp as well.

Jack

[Omega]

Sure thing man.

Any questions, feel free to ask here, or to send a private message.

[Carter]

A couple of observations....over the years, I have made handles for a couple of dozen honyaki blades and recently have been making blades using a similar process, albeit stock removal not forging.

Many of the honyaki blades are a little thicker along the spine than the typical san mai clad blades, but the overall edge and tip geometry are generally the same as a clad blade. I don't know that there is a singular reason for the thicker spine, could do with better resistance to cracking in the quench (more later), or that it is more traditional....don't see many honyaki lasers, or as an indication of a costlier blade being more substantial. Although there is a greater chance of cracking with a honyaki, I have to believe that most smiths have their process dialed in and get consistent results. Warping is not much of an issue with a honyaki, and generally the warp will take place in the thicker parts of the blade, not the tip or edge. I suspect that most smiths leave a honyaki blade a little thicker going into heat treat than a san mai blade, this helps prevent cracking and just takes a bit more time in the post heat treat grinding. Straightening a warped honyaki is usually a non-issue, the soft steel at the spine will take a set and respond to bending. A blade that is homogeneous (non-clad) and fully hardened (not differentially, as with honyaki) is very tough to straighten and almost impossible with 52100/W2 without heating and softening the spine.

There are two main quenchants for honyaki, most traditional is a water quench, but oils are also used. Water is the more violent quench and results in a higher failure rate than oils. Some smiths make a brine solution and use that as the water quench, still others use and interrupted quench where the blade is immersed in water and oil. Each smith has his own formula, from the type of clay mixture, the thickness, the heating temperature, and the type and method of quenching....there are many possibilities and none are right or wrong, just what works to get a desired result.

As an example, I differentially heat treated two W2 blades yesterday using the following process, both were straight as an arrow:

1. Claying - Rutland's furnace cement...I also use satanite, but get more consistent results with Rutland's
2. Normalizing to refine grain structure - 1600f for 20 min and air cool, repeat at 1475f, 1450f, 1425f for 10 min each and air cool between sessions
3. Austenize (harden) - 1460f for 13 min and quench in Parks 50 (a specifically engineered oil quenchant) for 7-8 seconds then into a water bath. Actual tested results in these blades was 68Rc post quench
4. Tempering - 2 or 3, 2 hour sessions at 360f oven, looking for 62-63Rc

Sharpening is no different with a honyaki, the edge is as hard as any clad blade, in most cases 62-65Rc. Thinning a honyaki will be more time consuming in some cases.

Many of the honyakis I have seen are nothing special, a few have been exemplary works of art. The difference seems to be in the details and the fit and finish, including hamon, then the shape and grind.

Just some random thoughts.......

[Cutuu]

I got two honyakis from Meet Randy, whole packages our phenomenal.

[jacko9]

I been looking and I wonder what you folks think about a Hitohira Togashi Yohei Blue #1 Mizu Honyaki Gyuto 240mm Ziricote Handle? Like I mentioned before I'm totally new to looking for a Honyaki and I don't know anything about the blacksmiths and sharpeners that make them so I'm hoping for some of the collective wisdom on this forum for assistance.

jack