Depreciation for modified knives?

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Kalaeb
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Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by Kalaeb »

I was lucky enough to grab a relatively virgin Hiromoto gyuto. These are no longer in production and while I recognize they are not a high value knife it still has some value and at some point I may need to sell (hopefully I never have to).

That being said, I don't like the stock handle or the balance point. This leads me to replace the scales and keep the current full tang or convert to a hidden tang to reduce weight and push the balance point a little more forward.

In your opinions, do modified knifes (conversion from full tang to hidden) decrease the potential value?
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by salemj »

I think modifications generally decrease value unless you have professional equipment. I've messed with a few knives. Although I don't have professional equipment to "finish" the knives on machines, I've generally done a good job with sand paper (by hand). I've been surprised in my own cases and in the cases of other posts, where it is pretty clear that the knife has undoubtedly been improved, but that people are hesitant to buy, either because they doubt this, or because they are worried about their own resale ability. This is particularly true in terms of used knives. I've seen knives sold by chefs that were used very hard and sharpened very aggressively, but sold very quickly for just a 10-15% cheaper than a brand new knife with slight modifications or slight use in a home that struggles to sell.

Of course, it could just be me. But it seems odd. Given I seem to garner a lot of genuine respect from seasoned members in regards to my ability to judge blades, grinds, balance points, the "feel" of a knife, etc., it seems unlikely that when I say a knife has undoubtedly been improved in precisely these ways, people would think I'm lying or full of BS. However, when it comes to buying and selling, people have very particular opinions, especially in the US. I've certainly never lived or experience another country where people were more vocal, adamant, and demanding in terms of customer service and returns (or where companies provided such generous policies), nor have I experienced similar "used" markets where people expected something to be like-new but sold at a significant discount. So, if you're worried about resale, I'd avoid anything so drastic. What's sad is that that Hiromoto would probably sing with such modifications, but without them, I doubt it will really see any use in your home given the other knives you own.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by ronnie_suburban »

I'm relatively new to this particular secondary market but my general feeling is that modifications decrease value and desirability. Of course there are all sorts of exceptions but if I'm shopping for a previously-owned knife, my desire would be for the knife to be as close to BNIB as possible.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by Altadan »

Joe really points at a few considerable cultural issues.
Where I'm from, however, we have a phenomenon we call "the succeeder method"
You sell at the price you'd like, and if it succeeds, then it's a win-win; everybody gets what they wanted for a price that was agreeable by both sides (this can be used, of course, to scam folks who are uninformed about the actual value of certain items, but in your case, that's not the case!).

I'd say that personally, if you're confident with your modification work, you can put your own price-tag on the knife, and put it up on the classifieds. Given a decent amount of time, the market will tell you if the price was right :)
At the same time, I might add that any modification you do for your own pleasure need not *necessarily* be factored into the price as "labor," even if they are improvements. Just my two cents.
Hope it helps!
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by Bensbites »

I have seen you post your rehandles, and I think switching out scales can add value.yo to wa conversion... that really depends on the buyer.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by jacko9 »

I don't see any issues with changing a knife handle but, for me somebody sharpening, thinning or re-profiling a knife would cause me to hesitate. That being said I have never purchased a "previously owner" knife and in the past few years I have bought 23 Japanese made knives from various sources from CKTG to Blacksmiths because they have a stake in the game as far as their business. Like Altadan says the market will set the value or your salesmanship for at least a few transactions. I never buy a knife thinking about resale since I'm old enough to just give them to family as they need them and still have plenty of tools in my kitchen as a home cook.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by Jeff B »

I don't think replacing scales hurts the value and raises it for some, think Dave Martell spa treatment. Converting from yo to wa on the other hand will make it harder to sell but still might not hurt the price. Would just have to wait for the right buyer or drop the price for quicker sale.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by ken123 »

You should decide if its a keeper or seller first. If it's a keeper do with it as you wish. If its a seller sell it as is.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by Nmiller21k »

Handles aren’t as detracting as changing the grind or profile of the blade.

So go for it
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by Kalaeb »

ken123 wrote: Sat Apr 18, 2020 2:00 am You should decide if its a keeper or seller first. If it's a keeper do with it as you wish. If its a seller sell it as is.
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Ken
No doubt, and normally I would not buy knives that I did not intend to use or call my own. The recent events got me thinking about the "what ifs" when two months ago I would have never thought twice about it.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by thetoe »

I say unmodified is a safer bet because you don't exclude anyone from the purchase. Modifications could be a dealbreaker for some.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by Organized »

With regards to Hiromotos, I don’t understand spending more for modifications that the retail price of the knife itself. However, it’s your knife do as you wish.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by RamenMonster69 »

When handles, blade profiles/ grinds, and fit and finish are improved by known pros, I think they can increase the value if there are known issues with the original blades. When done by amateurs even skilled ones probably not.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by lsboogy »

I find that when things are done right (thinning especially) by people who know what they are doing it increases the value of a knife. I've had several knives thinned (mostly by Chris) - and his work has had offers of well above market price of stock blades. I'm getting a kono thinned by ken123 and if I'm right, this thing will go from a decent knife to a beast. But too many folk have ruined knives trying to learn - don't take a nice knife and learn on it.

That being said, I only get work done on knives that I plan on keeping.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by ken123 »

I'm not a particularly fast sharpener. I tend to put my heart and sole into doing an excellent job. To me there is something not right when you put all that work into perfecting an edge and it winds up in the classifieds. Maybe that's just me, but I try to design the edge to meet the enduser's requirements.

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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by lsboogy »

I'm also of the bent that I don't sell knives - especially ones that have been "tuned" for me. I was offered more than list for a nakiri I use once in a while (had it thinned - really thin - by Chris M. It is still stiff enough that it does not wander in food, but when I need to go to a Nakiri (rarely in a pro kitchen any more) it is a real head turner - no movement in tight onions, and hold a great edge for skinned veg as well. If I could get a longer nakiri I might use it more in a pro environment. It's still great at home, and my SO really likes to use it. Classified may or may not be the best place to sell a knife that you have had tuned up - and I don't see a need to get a knife tuned unless you really like the profile and fell of the thing. I get work done on knives I plan to use more frequently and never sell.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by salemj »

ken123 wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 1:00 am I'm not a particularly fast sharpener. I tend to put my heart and sole into doing an excellent job. To me there is something not right when you put all that work into perfecting an edge and it winds up in the classifieds. Maybe that's just me, but I try to design the edge to meet the enduser's requirements.

---
Ken
I think there's a more productive way of thinking about this. I bet a lot of users send out their knives for spa treatment in a last-ditch effort to connect with a knife. In that sense, they are trying to get the full potential out of a knife, searching for a connection with a knife they know is great. If, when they get it back, that connection still isn't there, they try to find it a new home rather than let it sit dormant. I get why, from a sharpener's perspective, this would be a let-down. But I don't see how it is problematic from a moral or ethical perspective. It seems like, from the perspective of the maker and the tool, to be lovingly used and appreciated is the end game.

I don't have space to hold onto knives, and I try to avoid holding onto knives that I know I can't keep out and ready to be used. After a knife sits in my block for a while but gets minimal use, that tells me it needs a different home. It doesn't matter how great the knife is, because I don't buy knives because I think they are great museum pieces are deserve appreciation, I like them because I like to use them in the kitchen. In fact, in most cases, the nicer the knife, the quicker I try to pass it on, because the less doubt I have that it deserves greater appreciation.

But I also feel that it is nice to try to get the maximum potential out of a knife, and it is well-acknowledged that many Japanese knives are NOT designed to get the maximum potential out of a knife, but rather to meet the needs of the seller/buyer. Even small modifications can make a big difference, with the most obvious being work on a spine and choil—anyone who has experienced a proper relief on a great knife (mine have included a T-F, a Masamoto VG, a Masamoto KS, and an Ikeda KS clone) knows that this simple modification can change one's connection to a knife 180 degrees, from barely wanting to pick it up to feeling like it is a dream workhorse. However, sometimes you do a small modification and - although it undoubtedly improves the knife - you still don't get the personal connection you desire. The knife is improved, not soiled. Although no longer "new," it begs to be used and has only gained in performance and longevity. In such cases, it seems like sending it off to be used rather than to sit in a block mostly unused year after year is a blessing.

The market has changed, of course. The supply of Japanese knives is now virtually endless. This means that, sadly, it is harder to sell knives without big losses, which also means it is more likely that more and more knives are "replaced" with upgrades or different brands, but then sit in a closet while the owner hopes for appreciation or a chance to at least get some money back, knowing the knife has decades of use left. This is a bid sad to me.

But it doesn't change the conundrum: for some users, the desire to connect with a knife, to extract its unrealized potential, is stronger than the desire to sell it after an iffy first impression. Yet, the desire to know the knife will ultimately find a good home is still there. Will modifying it end in a lose-lose scenario, or a win-lose (or lose-win)? It is difficult to know. I do feel, however, that buyers (including me) default to being overly skeptical of some loving attempts at realizing potential, but are oddly forgiving of buying used knives as long as they think their resale value is intact.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by lsboogy »

Joe -

I hate to disagree, but the supply of high end J knives is prablably temporary, as the supply of custom built knives is still very limited. Agreed that there are many who are not buying right now, but I think this is temperary. My guess is the supply will go back to "unobtanuiom " status soon. If you want a custome built knife or two, this is probably a good time to both keep the knife maker in business and get your kniv=fe made

Plus, thuis is a good time to keep each other employedn by keeping yourfavirotie knife makers busy
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by salemj »

lsboogy wrote: Tue Apr 21, 2020 5:36 pm Joe -

I hate to disagree, but the supply of high end J knives is prablably temporary, as the supply of custom built knives is still very limited. Agreed that there are many who are not buying right now, but I think this is temperary. My guess is the supply will go back to "unobtanuiom " status soon. If you want a custome built knife or two, this is probably a good time to both keep the knife maker in business and get your kniv=fe made

Plus, thuis is a good time to keep each other employedn by keeping yourfavirotie knife makers busy
I don't want to derail the thread, but I feel it is appropriate to ask a follow-up given the lack of information here.

Seems like we're talking about very different things here, but I can't know for sure without knowing what your opinion is based on, so I'd ask "why" you think the supply is temporary. It seems like you're talking about a certain bracket of "high end" knives whose aura is directly connected to the name of specific people (which is obviously transient), whereas I'm just talking about great knives.

The average value of a knife in my collection is definitely "high end," and I consider all of them to be excellent knives that are easily in the top 1% in terms of performance in a kitchen—but only one of my knives has a custom name attached to it. And yet, I feel like I could easily replace my entire collection with similarly performing knives within a month or two despite taking years to acquire it—at least that is what my constant window shopping implies. I see no shortage of really terrific knife options out there, and the only knives I know of that are really hard to get are difficult to get because of who made them. I have yet to use a knife over $500 that was absolutely superior to any other knife over $500; in fact, my experience is quite the contrary: most knives over $500 differ more in aesthetics than in performance potential, regardless of how far above $500 you go. Again, to the contrary, over the last 15 years, I've seen exponential growth in the number, type, availability, and overall supply of good and great Japanese knives, and given that most master smiths now run workshops, use pre-fabricated billets, and that many custom makers use stock removal and outsource heat treatment, I see no reason why things would dry up any time soon unless demand itself dries up. I'm very curious why you feel otherwise, not to argue the point, but to try to learn something here and maybe broaden my perspective. But then again, maybe we are just talking about two different things - knives named after people vs. great Japanese knives - and the "disagreement" isn't actually disagreement at all.

Otherwise, I'd encourage readers not to confuse my comments related to the OP with anything about supporting knife makers. I never said nor implied that people should stop buying knives or supporting makers, and nothing in my post nor the OP has anything to do with COVID aberrations, local business, supporting knife makers, or discouraging people to seek out great knives. On the contrary, I'm discussing years-long trends and encouraging people to develop attachments with their tools and celebrate them, which is what high-end or custom knives are supposedly all about.
~Joe

Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Depreciation for modified knives?

Post by lsboogy »

I would not expect Cafter to give me any discount in given times. I am going to have a petty and a 210 for my SO this year and I'm guessing that they will both cost me a pretty penny. I would guess that anyone who has work done on their knives is probably pretty serious about performance - I can tell the difference when a knife is tuned for me. And if I like a knife enough to get it tuned, it's probably nothing I would sell anyway
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