Tsubaki oil causing rust.

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Joshigon
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Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Joshigon »

I was keeping my masakage mizu in a says with no oil on it. It has been in it for about a month with no use. A few days ago I put some tsubaki oil on the blade and returned it to the says. Today I decided I wanted to take it to work. The blade now has rust on it. Has anyone else experienced this ? What kind of oil do you like to use?
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Kit Craft
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Kit Craft »

Nope but I never ever oil knives. I had that issue with blued guns. Oil and storage always meant rust for whatever reason. I have heard loads of pros say to never store carbon in a saya for what it is worth
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Chefcallari »

Ive never put my carbons in sayas because its an enclosed environment and i felt that any moisture in the air would get trapped, potentially causing rust. I just use edge guards. But im confused on how an oil could cause rust? It seems like it should be impossible, but i dont know what t-oil is made up of. Any body else know how this could happen?
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Kit Craft »

Chefcallari wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:29 am Ive never put my carbons in sayas because its an enclosed environment and i felt that any moisture in the air would get trapped, potentially causing rust. I just use edge guards. But im confused on how an oil could cause rust? It seems like it should be impossible, but i dont know what t-oil is made up of. Any body else know how this could happen?
Like I said, i don't know why but I had the same issue with guns and gun oil in my safe. Never had that issue be for U had a safe...where they were left in open air. I wonder if that is key.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Chefcallari »

Kit Craft wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:50 am
Chefcallari wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:29 am Ive never put my carbons in sayas because its an enclosed environment and i felt that any moisture in the air would get trapped, potentially causing rust. I just use edge guards. But im confused on how an oil could cause rust? It seems like it should be impossible, but i dont know what t-oil is made up of. Any body else know how this could happen?
Like I said, i don't know why but I had the same issue with guns and gun oil in my safe. Never had that issue be for U had a safe...where they were left in open air. I wonder if that is key.
That might it. Like I said i always felt the saya would trap air and in turn any moisture in the air. Gun safe same concept.
Josh Maybe try oiling your mizu and leave it out of the saya? See if you get any rust... If you do then you will have a little more assurance that its the oil and not the saya.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Carter »

There could be a few reasons for the rust with a carbon blade. Direct moisture...if the saya got wet or the blade was put into the saya wet, there could be some residual moisture that would cause rust...I doubt this is the case, as most of us are pretty good about drying blades. Glue....some of the common wood glues used for sayas will cause rust...I have recently changed the glue that I have been using on my sayas for years due to this exact reason. Change in temperature.....I have some of my personal knives in sayas out in my workshop....it is not insulated and we generally have about a 20F temperature change daily....I notice that I am getting some rust on blades that had not happened before....I can only guess that there is a minute amount of condensation forming and causing the rust....I do see visible condensation on some of my heavy cast iron surfaces (table/band saws) and my granite reference plate, so I know it is happening.

I have been able to counter the rusting, especially due to the glue, by coating the blade in an oil (butcher block will work) and rubbing the blade against the walls of the saya...I do this repeatedly over a few days....in each case the rust has stopped.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Joshigon »

Carter, what kind of glue do you use now?
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Carter »

Joshigon wrote: Sat Aug 26, 2017 12:23 pm Carter, what kind of glue do you use now?
I went from Titebond III to the original Titebond (red label). I rarely had any issues with customer knives and Japanese knives, but when I started making my own blades out of 52100, the problem became apparent. Usually, I would get a rust area near the tip up at the spine and then sometimes just behind the edge. I tried using the West epoxy that I use on the handles, but found that it dried so hard, it will scratch the blade where there are little bits of squeeze out inside the saya. The Titebond III issue it not uncommon....found a bunch of info about it, especially with sword makers. Titebond II will also cause rust. Again, oiling the crap out of the inside of the saya has stopped the rusting with the Titebond III sayas.

CWH
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Joshigon »

Thanks Carter! Really great information. The tip at the spin is exactly where it happens.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by nevrknow »

What about using a "beater knife" to oil the inside? Just in case, ya know?
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by milkbaby »

Good to hear this info. I've used either Titebond III or Gorilla Glue wood (which is type II) and never had rust problems in sayas. In fact, I've never had any rust problems in any carbon knives stored in sayas and I live in humid Florida. It may be that I always have climate control in my home for my dog. The only time it gets humid inside is when I leave my dog on the porch and leave my door open to watch her. But all other times the air conditioning must keep the humidity low enough to keep rust at bay.

Another thing to consider: you want your knives bone dry before oiling because otherwise oiling just traps the moisture in? I always wash then dry with a succession of two towels then let the knife air out more an hour or more before putting away whether that is on the magnetic rack or in a saya.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Kit Craft »

Climate control should make a difference. Things don't fair as well in the garage as the house, for me.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Carter »

I do think the climate control helps, again, my shop is not insulated and/or controlled, and we do have high humidity here. The problem seems worse up here in NC than it was in my shop in Miami, which was somewhat controlled, but definitely had high humidity and I was 1/2 mile from Biscayne Bay, so a salt environment as well. I have worked with a few Japanese knives that seemed more reactive than the vast majority of knives, so it must be that some steels are more reactive with the Titebond III type of glue. In the past, the issue had only happened a few times and there was no traceable pattern. Since starting with the 52100, there is repeatability, so I started the research and found it is not uncommon. In my case, I really think it is a combination of the glue, the temperature change and humidity. I have changed the glue, and have started bringing finished knives/sayas up to the house....problem solved.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Rufus Leaking »

I quit using camellia oil on my Lie-Nielsen plane blades for this very reason. I have a Starrett square that reacted badly with it as well. For that stuff, I use Tri-Flo, and wipe them dry with a clean cotton cloth. For my knives, I apply sesame oil, then wipe it dry before wrapping the knife in a paper towel. I use sesame oil because it is actually clean enough that it is used as the carrier for testosterone if you get the shots. I figure that if it is something that is actually injected, it must be non-reactive.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by ken123 »

Csrter, thanks for sharing your knowkedge and insights.

To me the oil acts as a moisture barrier. Water rusts steel. Now if the moisture is on the knife and then oiled, it traps moisture below the oil.

The.solution is thorough drying of the blade. I use microfiber towels. BIG difference from terrycloth towels. Trapping moisture in a saya or learher sheath or the knife itself causes rust. While I get some patina on my tool tables (drill presses, etc), I don't have the problems with my knives, which I rsrely oil, using mineral oil. These problems vary with your local environment, even within your shop / home / etc.

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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Organized »

I've had problems in the past especially with San mai rusting while stored in sayas, even just for 24hrs. Even after meticulous drying and oiling of the blade. Now I use duct taped cardboard homemade sayas, they don't look great but they seem to be more effective.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Organized »

I've had problems in the past especially with San mai rusting while stored in sayas, even just for 24hrs. Even after meticulous drying and oiling of the blade. Now I use duct taped cardboard homemade sayas, they don't look great but they seem to be more effective.
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by gladius »

I use Tsubaki oil all the time and have not had issues (I live in SoCal, 50 mi. inland). Of course I oil my carbon blades and wrap them in VCI paper for long term storage and I use sayas strictly for transport. I also save packets of silica gel I find in various products and place them in the knife boxes.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/vciruinpa11.html

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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by Kit Craft »

gladius wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:30 pm I use Tsubaki oil all the time and have not had issues (I live in SoCal, 50 mi. inland). Of course I oil my carbon blades and wrap them in VCI paper for long term storage and I use sayas strictly for transport. I also save packets of silica gel I find in various products and place them in the knife boxes.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/vciruinpa11.html

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That paper is great, isn't it? I get a handful of sheets of it when I order anything from Mark. I don't use oil but I too only typically use a saya for transport and keep the knives in VCI and cardboard in a tool chest thingy. (It looks like a kitchen cart mixed with a tool chest and or chest of drawers that you get from a big box store.) Anyway, I have not had any issues with rust and we have fairly high humidity in PA due to all of the rain and snow, I suppose. We just don't get the heat to go with it. :lol:

The point is, that paper is wonderful and a cheap solution!
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Re: Tsubaki oil causing rust.

Post by ChefKnivesToGo »

Kit Craft wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 3:05 pm
gladius wrote: Mon Aug 28, 2017 1:30 pm I use Tsubaki oil all the time and have not had issues (I live in SoCal, 50 mi. inland). Of course I oil my carbon blades and wrap them in VCI paper for long term storage and I use sayas strictly for transport. I also save packets of silica gel I find in various products and place them in the knife boxes.

http://www.chefknivestogo.com/vciruinpa11.html

Image Image
That paper is great, isn't it? I get a handful of sheets of it when I order anything from Mark. I don't use oil but I too only typically use a saya for transport and keep the knives in VCI and cardboard in a tool chest thingy. (It looks like a kitchen cart mixed with a tool chest and or chest of drawers that you get from a big box store.) Anyway, I have not had any issues with rust and we have fairly high humidity in PA due to all of the rain and snow, I suppose. We just don't get the heat to go with it. :lol:

The point is, that paper is wonderful and a cheap solution!
I'm so glad you guys suggested I carry that non reactive paper. We sell lots of it and it works really well.
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