Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

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jbart65
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by jbart65 »

Something like that may have happened to me a time or two, but I generally haven't had much problem with iron cladding. Only my Konosuke Fujiwara was tough to manage. Superb knife but I sold it.

My Tanaka Sekiso and Kono W#2 are fairly easy to manage. So was my KS. I try to stay away from acidic ingredients such as tomatoes and citrus at first. I also avoid onions and garlic too. I stick to vegetables such as carrots, peppers, potatoes and especially use fully reactive knives to cut meats. Once I get a patina going I work citrus and allium family members into the mix.

When I cook regular steak, I soak up some of the juice with paper towels and wrap around my fully reactive knives for a few minutes. Leaving it on a long time can produce some less pretty patina, so I monitor closely.
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Kit Craft
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Kit Craft »

jbart65 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:23 am Something like that may have happened to me a time or two, but I generally haven't had much problem with iron cladding. Only my Konosuke Fujiwara was tough to manage. Superb knife but I sold it.

My Tanaka Sekiso and Kono W#2 are fairly easy to manage. So was my KS. I try to stay away from acidic ingredients such as tomatoes and citrus at first. I also avoid onions and garlic too. I stick to vegetables such as carrots, peppers, potatoes and especially use fully reactive knives to cut meats. Once I get a patina going I work citrus and allium family members into the mix.

When I cook regular steak, I soak up some of the juice with paper towels and wrap around my fully reactive knives for a few minutes. Leaving it on a long time can produce some less pretty patina, so I monitor closely.
The mono carbon should be easy to manage as it is not so rust prone as iron cladding, My Tanaka is a beast though, it likes to turn orange instantly after a thinning if I am not careful but I have the KU. The B#2 I used already had a nice patina on it so I can not say. It had a very mild patina, though, so likely as you said.

Seriously, even a less pure steel like SK-4 is much less reactive than iron cladding.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Robstreperous »

jbart65 wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 10:23 am Something like that may have happened to me a time or two, but I generally haven't had much problem with iron cladding. Only my Konosuke Fujiwara was tough to manage. Superb knife but I sold it.

My Tanaka Sekiso and Kono W#2 are fairly easy to manage. [...........]

When I cook regular steak, I soak up some of the juice with paper towels and wrap around my fully reactive knives for a few minutes. Leaving it on a long time can produce some less pretty patina, so I monitor closely.
Hey Jeffry. Yepp... we're pretty much in agreement here. I've had no problems with my Sekiso either. Like you I let the Fuji go.

Excellent idea with the cooked meat juices to accelerate the patina and very timely! I just finished trimming a tenderloin for tomorrow evening. I'm going to be using this idea.
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jbart65
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by jbart65 »

Rob: One thing I do when using my carbon blades ... I work near a small prep sink. I keep a big sponge on the bottom. Use my knife, rinse with water and leave the knife, pointed down, on top of the sponge. Protects the edge and lets the water drain.

Each rinse basically resets the timer on rusting and patina-ing. I seldom leave it there for more than a few minutes, but my approach cuts me more slack on knife care.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Robstreperous »

Thank you again. Sponge is a good idea. I also exchanged some notes with InHuman who helped me overhaul my process. I've been doing it all wrong. Going forward I'll keep two towels out. 1 damp and 1 dry. Also will wipe down board between ingredients --- especially acidic.

Funny I'm just now learning this the harder way but.... there you have it.

I suppose one of my takeaways from this discussion is I'm going to need to invest in an endgrain board in order to test out the "feel on board" concept if that's one of the reasons to use a more reactive cladding.

I've delayed it to this point in the interests of ... let's just call it marital bliss.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Chefspence »

See...way too much work :lol: I have to say though, the Ogata was extremely easy to manage and hardly changed at all other than some bia colored patina in the suminagashi.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Kit Craft »

Chefspence wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:01 am See...way too much work :lol: I have to say though, the Ogata was extremely easy to manage and hardly changed at all other than some bia colored patina in the suminagashi.
Too much work? Don't you have an iron clad Tojiro? That is like the most reactive knife in the world... :lol:
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Chefspence »

Kit Craft wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:05 am
Chefspence wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:01 am See...way too much work :lol: I have to say though, the Ogata was extremely easy to manage and hardly changed at all other than some bia colored patina in the suminagashi.
Too much work? Don't you have an iron clad Tojiro? That is like the most reactive knife in the world... :lol:
You're right, I do. The hairline Nakiri. And yeah it rusts pretty damn easy. I don't care as much because it cost 31$ :lol:
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Kit Craft »

Chefspence wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:11 am
Kit Craft wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:05 am
Chefspence wrote: Fri Oct 20, 2017 11:01 am See...way too much work :lol: I have to say though, the Ogata was extremely easy to manage and hardly changed at all other than some bia colored patina in the suminagashi.
Too much work? Don't you have an iron clad Tojiro? That is like the most reactive knife in the world... :lol:
You're right, I do. The hairline Nakiri. And yeah it rusts pretty damn easy. I don't care as much because it cost 31$ :lol:
Heh, I still think they are a hell of a lot of knife for the money. But those things, if you look at them wrong before setting a very stable patina they will rust. I have the ITK models and when I thin them I have to take extra care to make sure I get a good patina back on them. I will grill up some chicken or steak that night. :mrgreen:

As an aside, this may sound odd but patina seems to change depending on finish. A very dark and textured Kasmui seems to make my knives patina slower. A nice glossy mirror and they seem to start faster. That could be just that the darker kasumi hides some of the patina, idk.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by limpet »

It seems different from knife to knife. Some just explode instantly. Some slowly develop an unattractive brown color, like they are warming up, and then suddenly take the plunge into the blue patina ocean when cutting some chicken. ;)

So far, they only time a patina has been removed from any of my knives, I cut a lemon or a lime with it. I'm not doing that again. Good thing I have a handful of stainless knives as well. Usually, my really reactive knives will get a colorful patina after a while, and then calm down. The patina spots will spread out and blend and become more and more uniform, and become a bit less colorful, a little more gray.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by salemj »

For some reason this makes me think of cars.

I guess my point is that, while recent technology in smithing has advanced the use of stainless steel far beyond where it was just a few years ago, that is a recent technological change. I assume it will take a while for the technology and ability to "filter through" the industry (citing above, it is not just a matter of what steel used, but the fact that different steels require significantly different techniques that can take years to perfect by even advanced smiths). Even after this happens, the question of "image," of "tradition," and of so many other things will cloud the real advantages and disadvantages between stainless versus iron (versus damascus).

Currently, I feel like the availability of stainless jackets has skyrockets for two primary but related reasons: PM steels and pre-laminated steel. My sense is that many PM steel (such as R2) are cheaply and readily available as pre-laminated steel with stainless lamination, and that this has really changed the balance of the market. The rise to prominent of T-F and Kato helped, too, as did Takeda's switch to stainless. If you take away just these figures and new pre-laminated steel (Kato = Masakage knives), you actually don't have that long of a list of stainless options compared to carbon...or at least not nearly as long of a list as before. Since all of these things are quite recent, it makes me think of how often I compare the massive new trucks I see on the road versus the new Teslas. It isn't a matter of logic or of availability, but of time and other factors.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by milkbaby »

Just wanted to say good post from Joe^ thumbs up.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by salemj »

Thanks! I would add that Mark’s lines play a big part too. His brands have not only massively expanded stainless clad carbon options, but he he has also pushed makers to provide such products under their own names. Remember that it really was only a couple years ago that Kohetsu etc even began as a brand.

Add to this the not as recent but still recent promotion of stainless clad r2 options by Shun and Henckels,many with fake Damascus to boot, and it is easy to see just how recently and explosively these alternate stainless forms have taken over a much older and more iron-based market.
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Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Rufus Leaking »

I think it all comes down to co$t.... a KU finished blade is so much cheaper than a semi or stainless finish within the same line every time.... a LOT cheaper. I don't think it comes down to material expense as much as the time involved.
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by Kit Craft »

Rufus Leaking wrote: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:03 pm I think it all comes down to co$t.... a KU finished blade is so much cheaper than a semi or stainless finish within the same line every time.... a LOT cheaper. I don't think it comes down to material expense as much as the time involved.
Yeah and I like cheap. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by KetchupKing »

I just now seen this thread and its funny because im dealing with this same exact issue and I totally feel that "cut a a tomato etc and 5 min later after you thought you wiped correctly you get ugly browning :cry: . Dealing with this with my mazaki which i totallllly love the make up on these knives right now, they cut so beautifully, but dealing with this iron clad is a messssss. As stated, even fully mono white steel is wayyyyy easier to maintain. I like the mono steel level of care, I dont care much for the iron clad level of care. With mono yes, I have to wipe consistently, but unlike iron clad, it won't turn funky colors after 3 mins of a missed spot, its rough, i feel this post a lot :lol:
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Re: Why use reactive cladding on good knives?

Post by taz575 »

Carbon cladding is easier to thin than stainless cladding, feels less gummy/smeary on the stones. I picked up one of the Tojiro Shirogami Kasumi 240mm and have been using it this past week. Onions, mushrooms, peppers, chicken, pork, zucchini, cauliflower have given it a nice blue/purple and gold patina. I usually wipe off after each ingredient with damp towel and then fully wash and dry when done. It wasn't anywhere near as bad reaction wise as I thought it was going to be and has been performing very well honestly! Its a laserish gyuto and will hopefully be getting a nice custom handle this weekend :) I wanted to try out an all carbon budget gyuto and this one has surprised me! I usually recommend the Kohetsu Blue #2 or Harukaze G3 series, but this is another affordable budget option!

I usually acid etch my all carbon blades to help keep the patina under control since the surface of the steel reacts to the acid etching and doesn't react as noticeably after that.
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