“How much better can it be?”

[ChipB]

Since I've been gone from the forum for a while, I've been reading through some threads to catch up and apologize for dredging up an older topic, but thought I'd weigh in here as I own(ed) Katos and Shigs and have solid experience with a variety of lasers including Kono HD2, though sadly, not the W2 laser.

Before talking about the knives, I'll say I generally agree with Kit and Joe's early thematic position. I.E. too often in the JK forums, the goodness of certain traits, knives, smiths etc. is applied absolutely and dogmatically as opposed to relatively and critically. The goodness of a Kono laser is very different from the goodness of a Shigefusa as the goodness of an Apple Watch is very different from the goodness of a JLC.

OK, so back to OP... Given other knives perform as well, or better, in similar tasks, this is why you pay so much for a Kato or Shig:

1) They are truly unique. This is the common thread across most knives that have gained cult status. A Konosuke Fujiyama is unique as a package, but there are many individual aspects of the knife that are found elsewhere with comparable execution with some pretty close proxies around that rely on the same smith, or sharpener, or both. Not so with Katos and Shigs. Setting performance proclivity aside, I've not seen anything that comes close to approximating either brand. There are Shig copycats producing 'Sanjo" style blades, but aping the low, S/zero grind and general pattern does not a Shig make. Nothing out there is anything like a Kato. Take what you know about geometry and performance and throw it out the window. This knife is the equivalent of a 7-seat SUV that gives a 911 Turbo a run for its money around the Nurburgring.

2) Craftsmanship & Tradition. Every aspect of the knife production process is done in the very, very old-school way. There's been plenty written on this so won't go in to detail, but suffice it to say, there are scant few knives available for purchase that have seen less machine contact, or less use of efficiency enabling methods than Katos or Shigs. This wouldn't amount to much if the end product was slop, but the consistent production of astoundingly well executed blades made in this manner is darn imperssive.

3) The Steel. The steel and treatment of said steel on Shigs is downright awesome and lives up to the hype. Sharpens up quick, takes a beautiful edge, has good retention and isn't chippy in the least. Katos are a different animal. The W2 is clearly taken to the limits on these knives. Retention is unreal and the edge is very refined. That said, it behaves, sharpens and feels like a blade that has been taken to the limits and will chip if not in very astute hands.

Why you don't buy a Kato or Shig:

1) Performance Alone. Amongst low-grind knives, a Shig is an excellent performer and a Kato is a great performing knife as well. That said, there are many knives, that cost a good bit less, that can outperform either knife in some, if not most, applications.

2) Practical Value. Similar to the point above, one can likely spend less buying 2 knives that accomplish the strong performance aspects achieved by the Kato or Shig in most categories for the same price as 1 of the aforementioned knives.

[Cutuu]

Great write-up chip. I have very little experience with shig and no experience with katos. But i have to agree about the shig steel, even before i knew much about shigs when I tried it on a humble ku nakiri on the passaround something about the steel felt really, really great. The shig ku nakiri i have now has that same feeling about tbe steel. I know Chicago( and he has a lot of experience with them so I'm not trying to argue) said that shigs dont have great edge retention; he said it referring to the upper shig ranks. He said the non ku had a different grind and so perhaps that plays a part in the edge retention. But my nakiri seems to have great edge retention, seems to get really sharp witbout even trying. I stropped it on my meara a couple times. And also it doesn't seem chippy at all. I would love to get one of his gyutos someday.

[ChipB]

\The shig ku nakiri i have now has that same feeling about tbe steel. I know Chicago( and he has a lot of experience with them so I'm not trying to argue) said that shigs dont have great edge retention; he said it referring to the upper shig ranks. He said the non ku had a different grind and so perhaps that plays a part in the edge retention. But my nakiri seems to have great edge retention, seems to get really sharp witbout even trying. I stropped it on my meara a couple times. And also it doesn't seem chippy at all. I would love to get one of his gyutos someday.

The steel on the Shig kasumis I own and have owned I think is pretty darn impressive. Without reading CH's comments, he's right in that Shig steel doesn't have otherworldly retention. That said, I've found the retention, certainly on my Shig Suiji which is a pretty good pattern to judge on, is solid. Combine that with the ease of sharpening and quality of edge that can be achieved and I think you've got some pretty special steel. Are there other treatments of other steels I like better? Yes. But that differentiation is subjective given what I appreciate in mu knives.

[Cutuu]

Chip and it could be that he was comparing it to something like a Kato, but the shig steel seems to me to hold up better than some AS knives. To me that pretty good edge retention.

[ButlerHoosierChef]

That is an excellent write up chip. I enjoyed it. So chip in your guestimation what knives would outperform those knives then as examples. Thank you.

[ChipB]

That is an excellent write up chip. I enjoyed it. So chip in your guestimation what knives would outperform those knives then as examples. Thank you.

Really broad question as it depends upon what you mean by performance and, by extension, how you use the knife/cut. For instance, most quality "lasers" will outperform either a Shig or Kato through onions, shorter produce and less-dense items. A Shig, regardless of how one wants to define the final grind (S/zero/convex etc.), is a low-grind knife. I don't particularly like that style, but many (mostly pro-cooks) do. I suspect this is because the style tends to separate ingredients very well, pushes sticky produce away from the blade surface and, as a result of the lower grind, feels a bit more robust. All of this means that if you are hitting hard and fast through a lot of product, things will stay on the board and you won't be overly concerned with damaging the blade (generalities all). Kurusaki, Anryu and others all make some fantastic low-grind knives which can perform as well as a Shig. That said, the cutting experience isn't even close. the Shig is elevated into a different category for reasons discussed earlier.
In terms of the Kato, there really is no proxy. It's easy to a name a knife that will outperform a Kato for a given task. Onion duty? HD2, Akifusa or any laser. Potatoes? That said, it performs really, really well in most situations and provides a unique cutting experience that is not to be found elsewhere.

In short, you don't pay top $ for performance alone. Cars are a great analogue for JKs in this context:
If all you are going to do is take your car to the strip, you buy a Demon (~$85K). If you want to stand up to a Demon sit 5, and enjoy top-end F&F you buy an E63/M5 etc ($110K). If you want to win track-day you buy a 911 GT2-RS (~$300K). If you want to win track-day with a v-12, in a scarce, exotic masterpiece of engineering you buy a LaFerrari (~$1.5MM). Demon still beats all of the other cars off-line....

[ButlerHoosierChef]

Thank you. That is what I needed described to me. You once again put it perfectly. Sorry for such a general broad question. Just trying to get the lay of the land about what knives are what etc. I think it would be so awesome if CKTG had like a bar chat or like a row of little dials to show to what degree the knife is in the different aspects of the knife. Example is it laser or workhorse edge retention sharpness etc. for every knife. I know that that also would be alot of work.

[ChipB]

Thank you. That is what I needed described to me. You once again put it perfectly. Sorry for such a general broad question. Just trying to get the lay of the land about what knives are what etc. I think it would be so awesome if CKTG had like a bar chat or like a row of little dials to show to what degree the knife is in the different aspects of the knife. Example is it laser or workhorse edge retention sharpness etc. for every knife. I know that that also would be alot of work.

Would definitely be very cool. Having helped out with some knife descriptions for the site in the past, I can confirm, as you suggest, it would be a lot of work to keep something like that current given the number of brands, patterns lengths etc. Mark carries.

For what it's worth, I've found, grind placement tends to drive the vast majority of disagreements surrounding performance. I.E. there are knives like TF and Anryu that are absolutely loved by some but illicit equally as strong negative opinions by others. Execution aside, these knives epitomize low, convex( or at least convex shoulders) grinds. The folks that love this style tend to be less enthusiastic about knives with a tall final grind/high shoulder placement like a Kono Fuji. It seems other aspects of knives (height, thickness at shoulder etc.) while certainly important, don't result in the same kind of disagreement about knife performance amongst knowledgeable users.
Given that, if at all possible, I'd try knives that are well executed examples of different grind placements, figure what suites your cutting style and resonates with you, then, move up the spectrum from there. I.E. if you live an Anryu, I think a Shig would be a fantastic big $ purchase.

[limpet]

@ChipB: Thank you very much for your excellent posts in this thread. I agree with you on everything here, and you put it into words much better than I could ever do.

[Hari Itami]

Great question voiced by the OP. Excellent thoughts posted by others on this thread. One of the timeless questions I come back to, again and again. Sometimes with answers that surprise the hell out of me.

I’ve heard of Shig’s and have had the chance to use a few Kato’s in addition to the Anryu Hammered Blue #2 210 (this is becoming my fave go to), Tsubaki Kori 240, Kanehiro Hap40 240, Takamura R2 210, Moritaka Blue #2 240, Kurosaki CoS 210, Fujiwara CoS 210, Takeda Sasanoha 180, Carter Perfect 210, and that’s just gyuto’s. Add parers, petties, ko-bunkas, kamagatas, bunkas, santokus, kiritsukes, mioroshis, sujihikis, reitohikis, etc. I expect there will be many opportunities for enjoyment.

If the answer to “How much better can it be?” puts a big smile on my face each time I use a kitchen knife, it will always be worth it. Alternatively, if this doesn’t happen, I ask myself what do I need to do to make it better so I can realize that smile on my face. Always worth it.

The journey continues.

[Cutuu]

Hey Hari, what Kato smith are you referring to? Does kanehiro have a hap40 model, or were you referring to kohetsu?

[Hari Itami]

Hey Hari, what Kato smith are you referring to? Does kanehiro have a hap40 model, or were you referring to kohetsu?

Sorry, I meant Kohetsu, not Kanehiro.