Why would I choose a carbon knife over some of these new stainless alloys?

[beanbag]

Preface: I am a knife noob, so everything I say is based on what I read thru the internet, not personal experience.
Preface 2: Let's keep in mind the price mid-range (<$130) for a knife

My understanding is that the advantage of high carbon knives is that they are harder (HRC 60+) than many of the stainless alloys (HRC <59) and thus you can make them very sharp relatively easily.

But then browsing the various knives here, I see for example an alloy called BD1N, which has a hardness all the way up to 63, and comments that it also sharpens easily. (There's also an alloy called R2, but that is much higher on the price scale) Why wouldn't I choose this over other carbon alloys in this price range? (There must be other mid-priced > 61 HRC mostly stainless alloys too, right?) Whether the knife makes a patina I don't care too much either way, but it is more convenient if I don't have to wash and dry the knife right away.

So, for a home cook who would rather cut slowly and admire how easily a knife slices thru things, what would be the + and - of these new stainless alloys over a carbon knife?

BTW, the only sujihiki knife I know of that has this alloy is the Yaxell Dragon, but then looking at some of the promotional materials, I'm like yeahhhh, I don't know if this knife is going to be made to my "preferences".

[Kalaeb]

If you are looking for the best bang for the buck the J carbons are the way to go. Great HT made by great smiths and can be had for a reasonable amount. Stainless has come along way since the 440c days. Some of the newer stuff can be great and feel spectacular, both on the stones and the cutting. If you want a no fuss knife or maybe have a household that might not be as careful as you are when using it, consider stainless. However, it sounds like you have the capacity for full carbon, so I would go for it. It sharpens very well and gets sharp with little effort. They are fun to play with and the amount of extra care is not much of a big deal once you get used to it. For pure joy of use, I go carbon, for anything when I am cutting citric of have the potential someone else might use my knife, I go stainless.

Give us a little more about what you are looking for, are you looking suji, gyuto, santoki etc, what length...

[Chicagohawkie]

In addition, so much of the stainless and powered steel is all made of prelaminated blanks. They are stamped, punched or laser cut. If you want a hand or machine hammered knife, stick with carbon.

[Rufus Leaking]

The short answer is- there is no “perfect” steel. Every single steel known to knifemakers owns its own strengths and weaknesses, and the one weakness of a certain steel is the strength of another. The RH of a given steel is a double-edged figure; harder steels tend to be more brittle, but hold an edge, and are usually more difficult to sharpen. Softer steels get wicked sharp, but don’t hold an edge, and stainless steels won’t get sharp to begin with, but you can leave them sitting for longer periods without wiping. True- the Swedish stainless, the powdered steels kinda mix things up a bit, but they all have holes in their game. I like white steel. I can get it razor sharp, and I can get it that way again in two weeks, if need be. I can get it sharp in 5-10 minutes, and I don’t mind the ritual of wiping it down. Every one of the steels offered here is supposed to do one thing: cut stuff.... I would rather not waste time and effort trying to get any steel other than white steel sharp. I own a bunch of these knives- I’m going to hit up a HAP-40 blade here once it gets back in stock, and I rather like the idea of having some ZDP just for grins, but I’d take white over AS or any other steel, just because it is so damn easy to get sharp.

[Cutuu]

You r going to find alot of differeng preferences for steel, but you may just want to focus on getting the best overall knive with in your budget. I think as ahome cook steel becomes alittle less important (when dealing with high quality jap knives like the ones on CKTG) of a factor imo, unless for whatever reason it is your most important factor that would be your perogative.

[Cutuu]

For example, if i had $130 to get started into the world of jknives and i wasnt planning on abusing the knive or subjecting it to abusive family members i would jump at the makato white damascus in the classifieds right now. Wow, i tried the more expensive makato and it's a whole lot of knive for the money!

[Ourorboros]

It's not that older stainless couldn't be hardened, but that many of the companies that used them didn't. German's just don't go for harder steels. Since Bronze Age China, Asians have tended to heat treat their blades harder.
As pointed out, it's about balancing qualities. What are the one or two qualities you want in a blade?
Personally, I like a hard Aogami Super. Edge holding, reasonably easy to sharpen, gives some time to dry off. I like Ginsan for stainless.

[Lepus]

Sharpenability is not just a function of hardness but of abrasion resistance, grain structure, edge geometry, and other minutiae. In fact steel at higher hardness steel is more abrasion resistant, which is to say in a way more difficult to sharpen. White steel at 64 HRC is quite hard, but still not particularly abrasion resistant. Something like R2 is more abrasion resistant, even at lower hardness, because the carbon in the steel reacts with other alloying agents in the steel to form various carbides. I have seen steels measures up to 67 HRC, but many carbides are harder, up to 85 HRC. These carbides present themselves in the steel as little chunks of much harder metal, which has a sort of chainsaw effect on the edge. Even as the steel making up the edge wears away, the carbides abide. They make the steel more abrasion resistant and typically (but not necessarily) give better retention.

One of the primary carbide formering elements in steel is chromium, which is also what makes stainless steels stainless. No matter what, any stainless steel will form more carbides than a pure reactive steel.

This still does not mean that a reactive steel will be easier to sharpen in all instances than a stainless steel. There are carbide forming alloys other than chromium and hardness does play a part. Many of the other issues, certainly grain structure and edge geometry, also come into play. AEB-L and some similar milder stainless steels are popular because with good heat treatments they can have atypically fine grain structure, which contributes in some ways to easy sharpening. But all those other things being equal, a reactive steel sharpens more readily and takes a finer edge.

I realize this is a fairly comprehensive answer, but you asked a deceptively complex question. If you would like any clarification, please do ask. Many of the people on this board are far more knowledgeable than I am.

[beanbag]

Thanks for the replies, everybody.

I didn't want to turn this into a "recommend a knife for beanbag" thread because I already asked in the Knife Suggestion forum.

Mainly I wanted to know if there were (mostly) stainless alloys that have the positive attributes of carbon (easy to get very sharp) without the corrosion downside. For example, let's put the BD1N alloy at HRC 63 (Richmond Artifex II BD1N Gyuto 210mm) against the SK4 at HRC 60 (Fujiwara Carbon Gyuto 210mm). All other knife design factors being equal, how would they rate in terms of maximal sharpness, and ease to achieve this? I wouldn't mind if it were "medium", or "medium-easy" to achieve a sharp edge, since I wouldn't use the knife too often.

Anyway, that's my main question. You can stop reading now. Below is the more specifics of my situation:


The backstory is that I got some Masutani knives from this site that are very sharp out of the box (VG10), but still not quite sharp enough to cut raw cubes of stew beef and chicken without the meat tending to roll under the blade. (I have not really tried to make them sharper, except a few trailing strokes on a Shapton Pro 2K stone).

The plan is to get a 240mm suji and make that stupid sharp for very occasional use. In terms of corrosion, I don't care if it turns funny colors, but it shouldn't start rusting if I don't take care of it right away.

Initially I set a $90 price limit, figuring that if I can get such a nice Masutani knife at only $70, then surely a suji will not cost that much more. I guess I was wrong on that, and the steel selection seems more limited as well. For <$90, there are pretty much only the Fujiwara FKM stainless knife, which somebody said does not take a super sharp edge. Then the Fujiwara FKH carbon, but I've read elsewhere that the SK4 steel is reactive and stinky. Then the Tojiro DP, but it seems that people find the VG10 "difficult to deburr".

So ok, if I raise the price limit to $130, I can now get a Masahiro "virgin carbon" knife [of some other carbon compound, but at least it is not stinky like the SK4], or a blingy damascus VG10 knife, or that aforementioned Yaxell Dragon with the BD1N. To get access to more steel alloys, I'd have to raise the price limit even more.

[ChefKnivesToGo]

You might want to try a tweener knife like the Kanehide TK. It’s inexpensive, sharpens really well like carbon steel but doesn’t require as much attention.

But getting good at sharpening will do you the most good.

[beanbag]

You might want to try a tweener knife like the Kanehide TK. It’s inexpensive, sharpens really well like carbon steel but doesn’t require as much attention.

Shame it doesn't come in a 240mm suji...

[Kit Craft]

You might want to try a tweener knife like the Kanehide TK. It’s inexpensive, sharpens really well like carbon steel but doesn’t require as much attention.

Shame it doesn't come in a 240mm suji...

A suji is where, for me, basic carbon shines. It will take a screaming sharp edge with almost zero effort and hold it well do to low board contact. That is, unless you are using it as a carving knife. Crust does not seem to be as gentle on the edge, ime. I have two very basic sujis that I keep and they are quite similar. Fujiwara FKH and Misono Swedish carbon (Dragon). The Fuji is on the stiff side, which I like for beef/pork on the thicker side of the slice and the Misono for things like fish. However, both do a good job all around. I happen to have more than one so I can be picky.

I had a nice Gesshin ginga in w#2 as well but it had more flex than I like.

[Bensbites]

As a home cook who doesn’t abuse knives, grinds are way more important than steel.

The carbon steels are easier to sharpen.

[Chefcallari]

I havent found the FKM stinky or very reactive at all. It patinas pretty slowly and settles down pretty quick.
It does however get stupidly sharp very easy.

And +1 to what kit said. I use a carbon suji at work. Sharpness is more important than edge retention for me with a suji even in a pro environment.

[Kit Craft]

I havent found the FKM stinky or very reactive at all. It patinas pretty slowly and settles down pretty quick.
It does however get stupidly sharp very easy.

And +1 to what kit said. I use a carbon suji at work. Sharpness is more important than edge retention for me with a suji even in a pro environment.

I agree. I have heard that the FKH, Kikuichi elite and Misono Swedish are very stinky and reactive. Well, I have had all three, kept two brands, and have never noticed that. Are they reactive, yes. Do they have a sulfur smell when fresh out of the box on red onions or the likes, yes but only for a few onions then it is gone forever. Well, gone until you thin it. Abouy 1/4 as bad as iron cladding and clears up about 5 times faster.

I have always felt the stinky and reactive thing was blown out of proportion for knives in general At least in a home environment where you have more control over your surroundings. Even something like a Tojiro ITK can be tamed with relative ease at home.

[Lepus]

Stainless steels will get extremely sharp and many of them, including the FKM and DP AUS-8 and VG-10, take that excellent edge reasonably easily. I don't think CKTG or most other boutique knife sellers offer any budget conscious knives that are truly difficult to sharpen. For me those are high end PM steels and Wal-Mart grade knives.

I point most people in real life to knives like the FKM and Tojiro. The advice available opn this or any other knife hobbyist board is going to be skewed toward performance, but a tool owner must be comfortable with and able to use his tools. A carbon knife left wet will rust. That is what carbon steel does. Someone unwilling to compromise on that shouldn't buy reactive knives.

[Radar53]

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here. There's an old saying that runs something like "Give a dog a bad name and hang him", which basically says that a person's plight or reputation is hopeless once said reputation has been blackened. And I think that stainless steel knives fall into this category.

Certainly there was a time, not too distant past, when SS knives varied from tolerable to downright awful. There are modern renditions of SS however that are incredibly good, but the bad reputation continues to be expounded. Most of the SS knives at CKTG are at the top end, as are most of the carbon knives. The heat treatment is a critical part of the final product as Lepus has noted very well in his post above.

I have knives of "ordinary carbon", W#2, AS, A-EBL, Swedish Stainless, ZDP189, HAP40, R2, 13C26, 19C27, and even VG10 amongst others. Assuming that these are all well produced steels, with good or great heat treatment, none of them is difficult to sharpen. This assumes good technique and the right sharpening bits & pieces and they can all get & hold screaming sharp edges. For me there is very little difference in sharpening "ordinary carbon", W#2, AS, A-EBL, Swedish Stainless,13C26, 19C27 & VG10. Hardness more than type plays a greater part in time on the stones. R2 appears to require only a little more attention and the other PM steels only a tad more again if you use the right gear and have good technique.

I'd be really keen to see if blind testing of the final edges could detect which type of steel is which. In terms of feel on the board, I only have sketchy knife skills so can't comment on that aspect at all.

So I think the choice of steel is determined more by what the knives are going to cut & be used for and what individuals are looking for eg easy care, edge retention, products to be cut, pro or home environment, sharpening equipment (stones, compounds, progression etc). The maker, manufacture & heat treatment, are for me, far more important than the composition of the metal.

This is meant more as a commentary rather than a rant in any way and I would be interested in other perspectives, because I might be missing something here. Thanks

[HectorFuego]

You mentioned the Fujiwara and Masahiro. I have a carbon Fujiwara 270 sujihiki and a Masahiro virgin carbon 210 gyuto. I also have a Tojiro Color Series Honeske and recently acquire a Kohetsu AS 240 gyuto. I love them all but each has its own personality.

The Fujiwara suji is the sharpest of any knife I've ever owned, after a little work on the stones. It's very easy to sharpen. The way it goes through protein is astounding.

The Masahiro (my first J knife) also sharpens easily and hold the edge a long time. Great on peppers, onions, tomatoes, etc. It is, however, a fairly delicate feeling tool Cutting winter squash with it made me kinda nervous.

The Kohetsu is a beast. The other night, it powered through a butternut squash with authority. You can put a great edge on it but it takes more effort than the softer Fujiwara or Masahiro. The feedback on the stones is noticeably different. The Fuji and Masahiro are around 60 HRC and the Kohetsu is 64.

These three are reactive carbon steel and they need to be wiped down during use. That's not a big deal once you get used to it. It's also interesting to see the patina develop over time.

The Tojiro was one I bought with rough use and sketchy maintenance discipline in mind. It's stainless so wiping it down right away is not mandatory, and if it gets buggered up beyond repair it's not that great a loss. The HRC on that one is around 57-59. The performance on the stones and in use has been pleasantly surprising. It's fantastic for trimming the fat and silver skin off of pork roasts. It also holds an edge fairly well, although I haven't done much board work with it.

So what's the point of all this. Well, both Fujiwara and Masahiro make great carbon steel blades for the price. Carbon steel blades in the 60-61 hardness range are easy to sharpen, and in my mind that's kinda the sweet spot for performance, ease of sharpening, edge retention, and how sharp they can get. A couple of years ago I was in exactly the same place you are, with regard to skill and knowledge. I went with the carbon steel blade and have not regretted it for a second. Get a couple of good stones, watch the sharpening videos, and put a carbon steel knife to the test. You will not be disappointed.

Howard

[Kit Craft]

I'm going to go out on a bit of a limb here. There's an old saying that runs something like "Give a dog a bad name and hang him", which basically says that a person's plight or reputation is hopeless once said reputation has been blackened. And I think that stainless steel knives fall into this category.

Certainly there was a time, not too distant past, when SS knives varied from tolerable to downright awful. There are modern renditions of SS however that are incredibly good, but the bad reputation continues to be expounded. Most of the SS knives at CKTG are at the top end, as are most of the carbon knives. The heat treatment is a critical part of the final product as Lepus has noted very well in his post above.

I have knives of "ordinary carbon", W#2, AS, A-EBL, Swedish Stainless, ZDP189, HAP40, R2, 13C26, 19C27, and even VG10 amongst others. Assuming that these are all well produced steels, with good or great heat treatment, none of them is difficult to sharpen. This assumes good technique and the right sharpening bits & pieces and they can all get & hold screaming sharp edges. For me there is very little difference in sharpening "ordinary carbon", W#2, AS, A-EBL, Swedish Stainless,13C26, 19C27 & VG10. Hardness more than type plays a greater part in time on the stones. R2 appears to require only a little more attention and the other PM steels only a tad more again if you use the right gear and have good technique.

I'd be really keen to see if blind testing of the final edges could detect which type of steel is which. In terms of feel on the board, I only have sketchy knife skills so can't comment on that aspect at all.

So I think the choice of steel is determined more by what the knives are going to cut & be used for and what individuals are looking for eg easy care, edge retention, products to be cut, pro or home environment, sharpening equipment (stones, compounds, progression etc). The maker, manufacture & heat treatment, are for me, far more important than the composition of the metal.

This is meant more as a commentary rather than a rant in any way and I would be interested in other perspectives, because I might be missing something here. Thanks

I think your commentary is spot on. I have tried to say something similar in the past but much, much more poorly worded so thank you for saying it so well. I guess that is what I mean to say when I state that good stainless is no harder to sharpen but rather it is slightly more time consuming. Takes a few more strokes here and there to raise a burr and a few more to remove it as well. In the grand scheme of things we are talking a few minutes at most difference.

With some of the stainless you mention and something you touched on, I find them to have advantages over very basic carbon. Example: Aeb-l/13c26 are two steels that are incredibly easy to sharpen, feel okay on the stones, take a wicked edge and hold it longer than a lot of White or 10xx series steel that I have used. Significant enough for me to notice, almost immediately, as a home user. The point is, as you said, the stigmata of stainless is in and of itself a stain, so to speak.

[Radar53]

@Kit said "the stigmata of stainless is in and of itself a stain, so to speak."

Kit mate, I really laughed at this!!!! Very well put.