Bent masakage shimo nakiri

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Quantim0
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Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Quantim0 »

Good morning,
I received the knife above a few months ago and it was bent on arrival. I emailed Mark and he responded with some straightening techniques for me to try or I could return it. This was my first Japanese knife and I was anxious to use it so tried to straighten it myself. It worked a little. After a few months I decided to email Mark and see if they have a straightening service, he let me know they would straighten it for me. I sent it in and ordered a sharpening just because it was in anyway. After a few days Mark emailed me and said the knife wasn't bent. The edge looked straight and I replied it was the whole knife that was bent or torqued. Put it on a flat surface and it rocks badly. He insisted it was straight. I took the following videos when I received the knife back yesterday.

https://youtu.be/ANH78l7VSEc
https://youtu.be/XMb3vOMfmOM
https://youtu.be/6Vsom8Brn8k


Obviously there is something wrong with the knife. Even if the edge is straight I don't think a $150 knife should be like this. I'm not blasting Mark or his service. I just want to confirm that I'm not crazy and there is something wrong with this knife. Hopefully the videos work
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by milkbaby »

Those videos don't really show anything other than the last knife is very flat at the neck where the steel enters the handle, possibly because it was ground flat. The neck taper and symmetry can vary and it appears the way you're pressing is pivoting the blade on the neck. That knife is hand forged and the neck most likely tapers down in an uneven manner causing this. Sight the edge against a known flat reference instead.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Quantim0 »

milkbaby wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 8:36 am Those videos don't really show anything other than the last knife is very flat at the neck where the steel enters the handle, possibly because it was ground flat. The neck taper and symmetry can vary and it appears the way you're pressing is pivoting the blade on the neck. That knife is hand forged and the neck most likely tapers down in an uneven manner causing this. Sight the edge against a known flat reference instead.
The last video is just to show that knives to lay flat on that board. All my other knives sit on the board with no rocking. If you look straight down the choil you can see the knife turn at the end. None of my 6 other knives rock or even move at all when they are on that board, this nakiri is the only one that does.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by jbart65 »

Based on what the video shows, I don't see a problem. Pretty sure one or two of my knives does that.

How does it cut?

Could be the knife wasn't installed fully straight into the handle. One of my knives is off center, but I only noticed when looking closely at it one day. Didn't affect performance at all.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by milkbaby »

You can't measure straightness with this method of the knives on the board. You need to measure the edge and the spine against a known flat reference. Without seeing these in hand, I still stand by my guess that it is due to the irregularity in shape and taper due to hand forging. And I agree with jbart that it is not important that a knife be dead flat. Especially the upper tip of a nakiri which doesn't do any work. Have you had any problems with performance of the knife?
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by ChefKnivesToGo »

Hi Andrew,

Both Alton and I checked the knife and it was straight. I sharpened it too and the edge was right on the stone the whole way. The way I like to check the edge is to put the edge on a piece of lined paper see if the edge tracks along the line. Yours was fine in that respect. Then I gun sight the edge first on the choil side and then from the tip side.

What milkbaby said is exactly right. Because the knife is hammered from a thick bar and then ground on the big sharpening wheel it goes from very thick to very thin and that process is never perfectly even so when you lay a blade down on a flat counter it can rock but that does not mean the knife is bent. I never judge a knife as bent this way since it's misleading and can give the appearance of being bent. Alton did work the spine a little from left to right.

Jeffrey asked a good question. How does it cut? I thought it sharpened up nicely.

Anyway, if you're not happy with the knife feel free and mail it back and I'll get you into something else that you might like better.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Quantim0 »

ChefKnivesToGo wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:55 pm Hi Andrew,

Both Alton and I checked the knife and it was straight. I sharpened it too and the edge was right on the stone the whole way. The way I like to check the edge is to put the edge on a piece of lined paper see if the edge tracks along the line. Yours was fine in that respect. Then I gun sight the edge first on the choil side and then from the tip side.

What milkbaby said is exactly right. Because the knife is hammered from a thick bar and then ground on the big sharpening wheel it goes from very thick to very thin and that process is never perfectly even so when you lay a blade down on a flat counter it can rock but that does not mean the knife is bent. I never judge a knife as bent this way since it's misleading and can give the appearance of being bent. Alton did work the spine a little from left to right.

Jeffrey asked a good question. How does it cut? I thought it sharpened up nicely.

Anyway, if you're not happy with the knife feel free and mail it back and I'll get you into something else that you might like better.
Thanks Mark. The blade appears to be straight but something is off and it bothers me. I do appreciate your service through this whole process. The knife came back screaming sharp and cuts well.

My issue is more of a cosmetic thing. I have it sitting on my board next to two Anryu, a Shibata and Yoshimi and they all sit flush on the board. This one just doesn't and it totally stands out to me. It's totally a personal issue not with the performance of the knife itself.

I will think about it and let you know if I want to send it back. I was likely going to sell it at a loss and replace it anyway. I may upgrade to something less reactive as well.

I do appreciate your level of service and that's why I have continued to come back and will continue to do so. I am in love with the Shibata Kotetsu AS that came in with it. Used it last night and was just blown away with it's performance.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Bensbites »

Quantim0 wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:17 am
ChefKnivesToGo wrote: Wed Feb 21, 2018 2:55 pm Hi Andrew,

Both Alton and I checked the knife and it was straight. I sharpened it too and the edge was right on the stone the whole way. The way I like to check the edge is to put the edge on a piece of lined paper see if the edge tracks along the line. Yours was fine in that respect. Then I gun sight the edge first on the choil side and then from the tip side.

What milkbaby said is exactly right. Because the knife is hammered from a thick bar and then ground on the big sharpening wheel it goes from very thick to very thin and that process is never perfectly even so when you lay a blade down on a flat counter it can rock but that does not mean the knife is bent. I never judge a knife as bent this way since it's misleading and can give the appearance of being bent. Alton did work the spine a little from left to right.

Jeffrey asked a good question. How does it cut? I thought it sharpened up nicely.

Anyway, if you're not happy with the knife feel free and mail it back and I'll get you into something else that you might like better.
Thanks Mark. The blade appears to be straight but something is off and it bothers me. I do appreciate your service through this whole process. The knife came back screaming sharp and cuts well.

My issue is more of a cosmetic thing. I have it sitting on my board next to two Anryu, a Shibata and Yoshimi and they all sit flush on the board. This one just doesn't and it totally stands out to me. It's totally a personal issue not with the performance of the knife itself.

I will think about it and let you know if I want to send it back. I was likely going to sell it at a loss and replace it anyway. I may upgrade to something less reactive as well.

I do appreciate your level of service and that's why I have continued to come back and will continue to do so. I am in love with the Shibata Kashima that came in with it. Used it last night and was just blown away with it's performance.
Given the suggestions you received what is you pay the blade on the board, but no the tang? Is that flat? Does it do the same thing on both sides? If the issue is forged vs stamped, then you may be able to narrow down your preference on blades.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by jbart65 »

Quantim0 wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:17 am I do appreciate your level of service and that's why I have continued to come back and will continue to do so. I am in love with the Shibata Kotetsu AS that came in with it. Used it last night and was just blown away with it's performance.
That's some knife. Got one myself. Best laser I have used.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by ChefKnivesToGo »

My buddy Shiba makes a mean knife. :)
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by gladius »

That is perfectly normal, it is because it is very thick at the tang. Both my Shimo nakiri and gyuto are like that. Even high-end knives like my Kato nakiri are like that.

Shimo & Kato:

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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Carter »

Here is a shot of a Kato Damascus 210mm gyuto that I mounted yesterday. Kato's are notoriously asymmetrically forged at the base of the spine right in front of the handle...this particular blade has a few slight curves along the entire spine...again, just asymmetrical forging....the blade edge is nuts on.

This makes mounting a Kato to a handle a little more difficult than most knives because when sighting down the handle to the tip of the blade it is hard not to focus on the asymmetry vs the actual alignment of the tip of the knife....it's a bit of an optical illusion. Same thing happens when mounting a long single bevel like a yanagiba...one side is flat and the other tapers, the eye wants to think it is off center.

This is the Kato I just mounted.

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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by ChefKnivesToGo »

Give us the money shot Carter!
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Carter »

ChefKnivesToGo wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 2:43 pm Give us the money shot Carter!
Not ready yet....I can hold out a long time....this is 1 of 3 for the same customer....will be a big money shot in a few days.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Robstreperous »

Quantim0 wrote: Thu Feb 22, 2018 7:17 am Thanks Mark. The blade appears to be straight but something is off and it bothers me. I do appreciate your service through this whole process. The knife came back screaming sharp and cuts well.
If you'll indulge me perhaps this will help.

I own this exact nakiri and I like it very much. In fact, it's the screen saver on my laptop.

I recreated the videos you posted and you're correct. One side of my Shimo wobbled. The other, interestingly, did not. Upon examination I concluded it was the manner in which the spine was hammered. It is hand made art.

Once upon a time when I was a very much younger man I earned a living painting the interiors of very high end homes for a master painter. We aimed for perfection every single day and to the best of our abilities we were as perfect as we could be. But true perfection for all is an elusive bride and one man's perfect is another's -- you should have done it this way. Nobody could say who was right.

Still, at the end of our jobs --- the rooms looked beautiful. Despite any kerfufle amongst ourselves.

At the end of every job our master would find an inconspicuous spot in the rooms, create a small drip of paint, and with a pencil initial the drip. He always pointed it out to the owner and gave them the option to paint it over. Nobody I know ever took him up on the offer.

The personal lesson I've carried with me all these years from this is we strive for perfection -- but we're only human. Keep striving for perfection. It helps make us better. But stay humble. We're only human. When something works, and looks beautiful, like a Shimo nakiri, try to enjoy it for what it is and how it was made.

Back to my little story above. If you can, enjoy the room or how well the nakiri cuts, and try to smile when you notice the little initialed drip of paint or the tiny wobble from the spine. We're human and we strive. When the room looks beautiful and the nakikri cuts --- the craftsman's done well and we're better for it.

Hope this helps. It was a pleasant remembrance for me.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Carter »

Thanks for sharing Rob....as a craftsman and maker, I struggle with these same themes....I look at a handle that I have made (or more recently a blade...but more critically so, a handle at this point) and I think, it is not entirely symmetrical or planar, but I always come back to the fact that there are human artistic elements....it would be easy, though more expensive, to turn out perfectly made products time after time, but the unique characteristics of being handmade, whether a blade, a handle, a piece of furniture, or a painted room are lost....as a craftsman, I think I could point out a flaw in every handle or blade that leaves the shop....it has been the rare instance that a customer has called me out on my perceived imperfection. There is a place for handmade work in our world, and I think we have a nice group that largely appreciates that, especially in the kitchen knife arena.

Per my earlier post....the Kato's can be a challenge to mount properly, but I must say, I spend more time looking and the individualistic nature of each of his blades than the ordinary knife. His blades, Doi's, Yukawa's, Shig's, some domestic makers, have more unique character than most blades. To me, they are more soulful....they are handmade and have the imperfections to prove it.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Jeff B »

Pull the Shimo back on the board to where the heel is at the edge of the board, like you did with the Shibata, and see how much rocking there is then.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Jason H »

Very interesting thread for sure...I appreciate something made by hand and quite enjoy the perceived imperfections in a work of art. I am not quite sure why this is, but I find some joy in things "less than perfect". I have a rocking chair made by the Amish in Pennsylvania with no electricity and I appreciate the heart and soul that went into making it. I suppose this ethic is how I ended up here on CKTG, moving away from using from a jig system to free hand sharpening. I don't believe that this is a matter or "right or wrong", only one of perception. For me, I prefer a hand plane and chisel over a CNC.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by jbart65 »

This thread suddenly got ... metaphysical. Thanks, Rob and Carter, for your thoughts. Well said.
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Re: Bent masakage shimo nakiri

Post by Carter »

jbart65 wrote: Sat Feb 24, 2018 6:29 am This thread suddenly got ... metaphysical. Thanks, Rob and Carter, for your thoughts. Well said.
Looking at the time stamps of my post (can't speak for Rob), but I am sure there was a little cocktail wisdom in the comments. ;)
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