Any downsides to damascus?
Any downsides to damascus?
I'm relatively new to Japanese knives and have a somewhat left field, but there's a reason for it, question to ask about Damascus cladding.
I've found a few threads here, on the old forums, and on other sites -- the general conclusion seems to be that while cladding (of any type) vs mono-steel may have benefits for harder center steels by protecting with softer steels, an N layer processes frequently referred to as Damascus is primarily of aesthetic benefit. I can accept that, but here's my question:
Are there any downsides, from either a performance or maintenance perspective?
The reason I ask is, I am indifferent on the aesthetics (i.e. I don't covet it), but there are several knives I've been stalking for months -- for some of them, Damascus versions are in stock and I may be willing to pay the extra $ if there are no disadvantages. I do not own any knife in both Damascus and non-Damascus variations to try side-by-side.
-Ray
I've found a few threads here, on the old forums, and on other sites -- the general conclusion seems to be that while cladding (of any type) vs mono-steel may have benefits for harder center steels by protecting with softer steels, an N layer processes frequently referred to as Damascus is primarily of aesthetic benefit. I can accept that, but here's my question:
Are there any downsides, from either a performance or maintenance perspective?
The reason I ask is, I am indifferent on the aesthetics (i.e. I don't covet it), but there are several knives I've been stalking for months -- for some of them, Damascus versions are in stock and I may be willing to pay the extra $ if there are no disadvantages. I do not own any knife in both Damascus and non-Damascus variations to try side-by-side.
-Ray
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
Unless the knife is full Damascus which a few are. It doesn't add to the cutting prowess or anything just adds to the cost.
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
I can imagine how in a professional setting, Damascus could grow legs quicker, so to speak...
Also, there has been at least one line of Damascus that's recently been on a passaround among some forum members, which had excessive resistance while cutting, possibly due to an overly aggressive etch of the Damascus (which was somewhat alleviated with use, and/cured with some sanding\polishing).
I myself own a Tanaka Damascus, and it has an impeccable reputation for performance. Hope this helps
Also, there has been at least one line of Damascus that's recently been on a passaround among some forum members, which had excessive resistance while cutting, possibly due to an overly aggressive etch of the Damascus (which was somewhat alleviated with use, and/cured with some sanding\polishing).
I myself own a Tanaka Damascus, and it has an impeccable reputation for performance. Hope this helps
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
I've always felt that CARBON damascus finishes had the net positive of being generally less reactive than basic iron cladding (although still perhaps more reactive, in some cases, than a monosteel carbon). Damascus claddings have, by definition, more impurities than pure iron, and usually include nickel; my feeling is that these impurities often result is slower and more elegant patinas. This obviously makes no difference with full-stainless knives.
At the same time, I find damascus finishes in general to have the net negative of added friction in the cut (as referenced by Altadan). I am very sensitive to how a knife feels going through food. I really like feedback at the edge, but I rather dislike feedback coming from friction along the sides of the blade. Damascus knives often have some kind of "etched" friction to start, and removing this friction usually also means "losing" the contrast of the damascus, which means if you like the damascus look, then you should also like its feel in the cut, as it is hard to have one without the other. (Of course, I have a damascus knife that is very subtle and I like it that way, so I still like that it is damascus and that it is smooth even if this also means the effect of the damascus is extremely subtle at best).
But seriously: I think that in most cases, there is a net improvement over iron in reactivity, and this can be substantial in some cases (the difference between my damascus Ikeda and my Konosuke Fujiyamas is quite significant, for example, not only in terms of reactivity but also in terms of color). The only example I know of that violates this is the Masakage Shimo, which has a light, faux damascus finish but is also considered unusually reactive.
At the same time, I find damascus finishes in general to have the net negative of added friction in the cut (as referenced by Altadan). I am very sensitive to how a knife feels going through food. I really like feedback at the edge, but I rather dislike feedback coming from friction along the sides of the blade. Damascus knives often have some kind of "etched" friction to start, and removing this friction usually also means "losing" the contrast of the damascus, which means if you like the damascus look, then you should also like its feel in the cut, as it is hard to have one without the other. (Of course, I have a damascus knife that is very subtle and I like it that way, so I still like that it is damascus and that it is smooth even if this also means the effect of the damascus is extremely subtle at best).
But seriously: I think that in most cases, there is a net improvement over iron in reactivity, and this can be substantial in some cases (the difference between my damascus Ikeda and my Konosuke Fujiyamas is quite significant, for example, not only in terms of reactivity but also in terms of color). The only example I know of that violates this is the Masakage Shimo, which has a light, faux damascus finish but is also considered unusually reactive.
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
I have found Damascus finishes to fall into two categories. In some cases, they cause resistance. In other cases, they do not. My Tanaka Sekiso and formerly owned Takayuki Damascus come to mind. Neither is harmed by the finish and they look quite nice.
Personally, I love the look of a good Damascus, but it doesn't play a role in my knife-buying decisions. Unless, that is, it has a rep for resistance. I base my decisions mostly on profile and weight.
Personally, I love the look of a good Damascus, but it doesn't play a role in my knife-buying decisions. Unless, that is, it has a rep for resistance. I base my decisions mostly on profile and weight.
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
The biggest downside you'll notice more than anything.
If God wanted me to be a vegetarian he wouldn't have made animals taste so good.
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
Thanks for all the input. It sounds like there aren't many risks aside from cost (which I am OK with) and a small potential for friction (though by reputation, that info is knowable).
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
Lately, while partially abandoning the quest for food release over performance there are some who passionately regard their damascus knives as the key to food release. If so, always a trade off. Friction, as others have posted. Good question by OP.
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
rayl1234 wrote: ↑Tue Oct 02, 2018 7:04 am I'm relatively new to Japanese knives and have a somewhat left field, but there's a reason for it, question to ask about Damascus cladding.
I've found a few threads here, on the old forums, and on other sites -- the general conclusion seems to be that while cladding (of any type) vs mono-steel may have benefits for harder center steels by protecting with softer steels, an N layer processes frequently referred to as Damascus is primarily of aesthetic benefit. I can accept that, but here's my question:
Are there any downsides, from either a performance or maintenance perspective?
The reason I ask is, I am indifferent on the aesthetics (i.e. I don't covet it), but there are several knives I've been stalking for months -- for some of them, Damascus versions are in stock and I may be willing to pay the extra $ if there are no disadvantages. I do not own any knife in both Damascus and non-Damascus variations to try side-by-side.
-Ray
Generally, assuming a high level of skill and understanding from the smith, both knives being made by the same smith, you won't notice a difference in a monosteel knife vs a damascus knife.
There are a lot of considerations. Damascus is generally composed of two different steels with varying alloy contents. ( there are others. Mokume is generally some semi precious metals. copper and nickel etc, mildsteel/nickel damascus is suuuper pretty) This nets you the pattern. As the steel is etched, the different alloys are eaten away at a different rate. For example- in "normal" damascus you're typically dealing with 15n20 and 1084 or 1095. 15n20 is a .7% carbon steel with some nickel in the sauce for toughness. This is generally used for big ripping band saws at lumber mills. The other steel has a slightly higher carbon content with less alloying elements. The nickel resists the etch and comes out as silver high spots in the pattern. the 1084 or 1095 etches more significantly and appears as black low spots.
Now- in the japanese world, you'll typically see damascus CLAD san mai blades. This means that the outer steel is the process above ( in one way or another) and the core steel is typically bonkers high carbon, super hard, super thin, fragile. The logic is that making a san mai blade makes it easier on the smith. In eons past, they had to make the high carbon steel. It wasn't exactly cheap or available at the hardware store. This method of construction allowed them to use less of the scarce material and slap some cheap iron around it for strength.
You're probably referring to knives that are san-mai with a damascus ( likely stainless) outer cladding. Stainless has to be forge welded in an oxygen free environment. This stuff has a higher failure rate in the weld process and requires more time and money to make. So it will add cost. IF it's low carbon stainless, it's softer than the core steel. If it's high carbon stainless ( vg10 or whatever) it will harden along with the core steel ( likely to a lower RC number than the core, but still "hard.")
You could argue that a heavily etched carbon damascus knife could offer some food release benefits from the high/low spots in the etch. It creates air pockets between the food and the blade, preventing a vacuum from forming. This is what we would call stiction. That theory is really grasping at straws, though.
What it really comes down to, truly, is that if you're concerned about how a blade cuts, you're gonna want to consider buying entirely based on geometry. if you're concerned about edge holding ability, buy based on geometry ( it's still gotta cut, you know?) and steel type (assuming the heat treat was done correctly.) Anything else doesn't make the tool perform it's intended function better. It's just stuff to make it visually appealing. There's nothing wrong with that ( I covet pretty knives!) but you should accept that and make your decisions under the understanding that you're spending an extra $100 or more because it's pretty and you want something pretty. Period.
Hope that rambling was somewhat informative.
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
It is... Thanks.
In my case, both targets under consideration are clad constructions to begin with (R2 as the inner steel), so it's the layers and perhaps combinations of steels in the cladding that differentiate the Damascus variant vs the non-Damascus variant. It is coming down to my impatience, having stalked for the better part of a year -- I've found one come onto the market recently, but in the Damascus variant, and am debating whether to grab it or wait further...
In my case, both targets under consideration are clad constructions to begin with (R2 as the inner steel), so it's the layers and perhaps combinations of steels in the cladding that differentiate the Damascus variant vs the non-Damascus variant. It is coming down to my impatience, having stalked for the better part of a year -- I've found one come onto the market recently, but in the Damascus variant, and am debating whether to grab it or wait further...
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
I'll just reiterate that I have used some damascus knives that had very strong friction and stronger stiction than other finishes. Very strong. This is a minority, and other damascus knives that I've used have actually had better food release and minimal friction in the cut when compared to plain finishes. But if you are wavering between to specific options that are similar in other regards (as you stated at first and reiterated above), you should try to find out exactly what the damascus finish is like. It could have a serious affect on how the knives feels in use, or it could not, but I would never minimize this to "preference"—depending on the finish, the differences are very real and very physical in some cases when comparing two versions of a similar knife.
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
Very valid. I could see how a shallow etch with a very high polish on some stainless damascus could yield some severe stiction. That really, logically, in my mind, anyhow, would come down to the grind and surface finish more so than material composition.salemj wrote: ↑Sun Oct 07, 2018 9:50 am I'll just reiterate that I have used some damascus knives that had very strong friction and stronger stiction than other finishes. Very strong. This is a minority, and other damascus knives that I've used have actually had better food release and minimal friction in the cut when compared to plain finishes. But if you are wavering between to specific options that are similar in other regards (as you stated at first and reiterated above), you should try to find out exactly what the damascus finish is like. It could have a serious affect on how the knives feels in use, or it could not, but I would never minimize this to "preference"—depending on the finish, the differences are very real and very physical in some cases when comparing two versions of a similar knife.
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
As said before they add to the cost but many of them are stunning in terms of looks and sum perform as well as mono steel.
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
OK...so a Saji Rainbow Damascus cost more....but you have to admit, they are gorgeous!
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
I would say downsides are it makes the knife more expensive, and sometimes makers will over etch the knife or it will have some resistance when cutting hard ingredients. I’ve never had a problem with one of my personal knives but i have used some in the past that have been that way. If you are considering a Damascus knife I would check out Metal Monkey, Greg Cimms, Benjamin Kamon.
Re: Any downsides to damascus?
Knife more expensive and a cosmetic feature. Definitely worth it if one considers a knife a "work of art".
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Re: Any downsides to damascus?
there is only one downside that it got rusted if not handle with given instruction otherwise its a good knife type to be used but most the the people can't do the proper care.