How do I find a good mid grit natural?

[Carlo]

I’ve been getting more interested in natural stones -mostly because they are such a pleasure to use- and find myself looking for a nice mid-grit natural. I figure I’m happy with my Shaptons up to about the SP2 as far as edges go though they do seem less useful for refining the blade road.

I figure I want an Aoto or an Aizu, likely an Aoto, but I’m not sure where to find a good one. We have one listed for $75 in the classifieds and another for $450. Epic Edge sells them for about $80 and A-frames for 2-3 times that. That fount of good information the inter webs suggests a wide range of quality and that prices do not necessarily reflect quality.

Anyone have experience with the stones sold by the retailers above or have another recommendation? I’d love to hear it.

Thanks!

[ken123]

Give me a call. Wide selection. Contact info at bottom of page.

Ken

[Carlo]

Ken, you never answered my email about the yoshimune. Check your earthlink account, subject line is "Looking for quotes on work for a couple of knives"

[ken123]

Pm sent.

Ken

[old onion]

I’ve been getting more interested in natural stones -mostly because they are such a pleasure to use- and find myself looking for a nice mid-grit natural. I figure I’m happy with my Shaptons up to about the SP2 as far as edges go though they do seem less useful for refining the blade road.

I figure I want an Aoto or an Aizu, likely an Aoto, but I’m not sure where to find a good one. We have one listed for $75 in the classifieds and another for $450. Epic Edge sells them for about $80 and A-frames for 2-3 times that. That fount of good information the inter webs suggests a wide range of quality and that prices do not necessarily reflect quality.

Anyone have experience with the stones sold by the retailers above or have another recommendation? I’d love to hear it.

Thanks!

I got my Aoto from Ken. I love that stone.

[salemj]

I had a similar desire some time ago. I tried an Aoto. I think what I realized was that the more important pleasure for me was a very wide stone that had a nice, flat surface that was easily predictable. I have been finding a little more joy with a SP 2000 followed by a big natural stone that feels like a wide strop. Oddly enough, I took a big risk buying an Okudo from Mark for about 200. I'm very happy with this stone as a kind of mid-to-high grit finisher that still leave a mid-grit feel but also leaves a strop-level edge of sorts. (Although I've never used one, I imagine this stone as being similar to a high-grit Aoto or a "Meara," but it cuts way cleaner with less water/mud to activate than the Aoto I tried and the wider face dimensions make the real difference for me.) However, unlike most natural stones that have names and quarries, this is the kind of stone that, well, I don't really know if I could every recommend it because I don't know if any other stone by the same name would feel the same. However, as I say, it really is kinda how I imagine a meara would feel given what I've read. I like this solution for have a mid-level, natural-feeling finish (and by that I mean still using my synthetics to the 1.5-2k range, but then doing just a bit of finishing strokes on the natural).

So, depending on what you are going for and how you sharpen, you might consider spending more to get a bigger, wider stone, or you might consider going just slightly higher in finish (like a meara) and still going to 2k with the SP. Just some ideas to have some fun.

[Carlo]

Thank you, those are helpful. I anticipate talking with Ken soon.

Old Onion, I’d love to hear what it is you love about your Aoto.

salemj, I appreciate your thoughts. I currently have 2 stones reported to from the Ohira mine: one seems to be among the Imanishi -branded stones like those sold by Mark, described to me as Ohira Tomae. It is soft and buttery smooth, and I love it. The other is described as an Ohira Renge Suita and it is definitely much harder, a bit glassy, and I am still making friends with it; it reminds me of the SP 5000 but it makes a bit of mud and is much more pleasurable to use. I honestly don’t see the difference in edge finish between these 2 natural stones, probably because I’m a novice and they are both pretty new to me.

I’m not even sure what grit range I’m looking for exactly- probably 1500-4000? I wanted something that would be a real toothy finisher for honesukis and other butchery knives as well as for softer western knives and so on, as well as a steppingstone toward polishing.

I definitely agree that a good bit of real estate to work with is very desirable.

[gladius]

I have several blue Aoto's and a red Aoto. One of the blue ones is very fast and is ~1k edge. One of the other blue stones is very hard, slow but fine. Aoto's vary considerably and can be costly for good ones. Make sure you can return it.

I read about a craftsmen who collected aotos for his work until King came out with the King Deluxe 1k synthetic stone at which point he stopped collecting (perhaps even selling them). He used the King (a mediocre stone by todays standards) since it produced as good or better edge and was much faster.

I communicated with Sin Watanabe once as i was looking to acquire more medium naturals and he said why bother and gave me his advice: determine the purpose for the knife and final edge and plan stone progression accordingly. Shape the edge using synthetics to a 1k or 2k edge. Straight from a 1k synthetic to a 4-6k natural for most knives or from a 2k synthetic to a 4-6k natural then finish on a very fine natural for those knives that can support it.

For butchery I'd recommend somewhere in the 400-1000 grit range synthetic. Amakusa, Binsui or Omura are good naturals in that range along with aoto if you want to go that route.

I don't know if you will notice a difference between synthetic and natural edges in that range except the natural stones will produce much less / smaller burr.

[cliff]

Does that mean the naturals are taking off less material?

[gladius]

Does that mean the naturals are taking off less material?

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Generally yes - they certainly are not as aggressive as synthetics.

[ken123]

Lsboogy has an interesting synthetic that would fit the bill here. There is a natural that is made for this application.

I find binsui too slow for this. It is best used for straight razors. Amakusa is also slow.
Kyushu Ohmura cut fast for this application starting fast and then refining itself.
Hopefully lsboogy will drop by ....

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Ken

[Carlo]

Update for those who are curious: Ken is looking through his inventory for a Monzen for me. Hope to be able to update this further before long.

I’m still very interested in the experiences of others ...now that I’ve fallen into this deep, deep rabbit hole that feels a lot more mysterious than knives.

[lsboogy]

I got a Monzen from Ken some time ago - great stone for doing protien and skinned veg knives - starts about 1500-2K and then goes to 4-4.5K as the mud breaks down. My CHII 52100 blade is currently done on a Monzen (only home use till further notice) and for home use is just a great finish one white steel. Going to do mushrooms, peppers (red bell and some nice serano jobs), bacon and then baby veg. Going to make a bacon and mushroom stuffing for under the skin of a roasting chicken and then serve with some nice baby veg. Old Julia recipe that never fails - easy peezee - set the chicken in a roaster covered for 2 hours and then take top off and go for another hour -all at 325 Stick your hand under the skin to get pockets all around the bird for stuffing - use about 6 oz mushrooms (fine dice) and 4oz bacon (med dice) and fill and even out stuffing under the skin, sure to use the residual fat from the bird on the breasts - roast breast side up.
Monzen is one of the most versatile stones ever

[ken123]

Found s few. Ill take pics!

Ken

[ken123]

Monzen Aoto Japanese Natural Waterstone, lacquered
A softer muddy stone lacquered to provide additional support and aesthetics.

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Ken

[ken123]

This monzen aoto demonstrates the characteristic mud formation you can expect with using these stones. This thick mud is particularly nice dealing with irregularly shaped surfaces and convex surfaces.

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Ken

[Carlo]

To update:
I received the stone from Ken about a week ago and right away set to work trying to ruin several of my knives

I hope to post again after making further acquaintance with this thing, but the short story is that it produced a crazy aggressive edge on a Moritaka AS petty I was fooling with. I also hit it with a cheapo Mac petty that it left a much more subtle but still toothy edge on.

I have no clue whether this was operator variability or not as most of my panic buying in March was booze and my wife and kids are safely out of town. You get the idea.

Now I need to get some meat and try these edges out!