White steel vs. Tomatoes?

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impending_bending
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White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by impending_bending »

On a couple of occasions now, I have been slicing tomatoes with a white steel blade and by the 6th or 7th I have noticed a marked decline in sharpness of the blade. It is not a wire burr. Is it possible the tomatoes are working that quickly, or do you think it is something else going on?
Thanks in advance, I look forward to learning about this.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by lsboogy »

Wipe a carbon steel knife down often - the blade is reactive (very) and will lose the edge quick if not dealt with properly. I use a towel on my blades (even stainless ones) about every second or fourth slice - habit
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by impending_bending »

I was slicing continuously, no pauses to wipe, and it still got dulled that quickly. Do you think it was the tomatoes?
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by Rufus Leaking »

I don’t think it has anything to do with the steel, I think it has everything to do with the fact that you are cutting one of the most difficult food items that exists. Depending on the variety and ripeness, they really need a serrated blade to do them justice. I think your observation is subjective.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by Altadan »

Rufus Leaking wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:16 pm I don’t think it has anything to do with the steel, I think it has everything to do with the fact that you are cutting one of the most difficult food items that exists. Depending on the variety and ripeness, they really need a serrated blade to do them justice. I think your observation is subjective.
+1 on everything but the serrated blade.
I have found there are two ways to consistently execute tomatoes (without reverting to a serrated knife, that is):
1) coarse finish, in the <1k area, or
2) a really careful, well done refined edge

In fact, either road - coarse or refined - demands attention in the sharpening if tomatoes are your subject.
I think white steel can deceptively "easy"to sharpen, resulting in some carelessness, if not sloppiness.

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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by jmcnelly85 »

There are too many factors to consider in edge retention to pin point exactly why things happen the way they do. If you are cutting 50 paper thin slices from each of your seven tomato’s while using a glass cutting board, I would say your edge retention is impressive.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by Jeff B »

Yes, the acid from tomatoes can start to dull your knife that fast. Especially with White steel which doesn't have impressive edge retion to begin with.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by lsboogy »

Altadan wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:31 pm
Rufus Leaking wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:16 pm I don’t think it has anything to do with the steel, I think it has everything to do with the fact that you are cutting one of the most difficult food items that exists. Depending on the variety and ripeness, they really need a serrated blade to do them justice. I think your observation is subjective.
+1 on everything but the serrated blade.
I have found there are two ways to consistently execute tomatoes (without reverting to a serrated knife, that is):
1) coarse finish, in the <1k area, or
2) a really careful, well done refined edge

In fact, either road - coarse or refined - demands attention in the sharpening if tomatoes are your subject.
I think white steel can deceptively "easy"to sharpen, resulting in some carelessness, if not sloppiness.

What stone do you finish your knife on?
I can't remember the last time I used a serrated blade on anything except for bread, and tomatoes seem to be best down with a very refined edge for me. I did lots of them a few days ago with an AS Kohetsu that is still quite sharp - and I did wipe it down every few slices, but I think the patina is what holds things together - martensite make my edge hold up on the thing even in acidic product. And it is tomato season now - have a few fresh motzarella hunks (coop makes them every day here) and will be at farmers market about 6:30 tomorrow morning - my SO will waken to Caprese tomorrow - have basil in garden, just need more tomatoes (only getting a couple a day right now from the garden), and great heirloom stuff is available for cheap at the farmers markets around here.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by impending_bending »

I have finished that particular edge in everything from 1k chosera to 16k shapton glass and the dulling has happened multiple times.

Interesting that it can dull that quickly with tomatoes, I haven't seen that with any other steel, but I don't know that I've used another carbon steel on tomatoes before. Would you guys/gals expect the same thing on blue steel? As if not wiping?

Isboogy - I don't understand why you wipe the blade if youre just going to slice again right away. Is the idea to keep as little juice on the blade as possible? Am I missing something?

Thanks again, all.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by pd7077 »

lsboogy wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:00 pm I can't remember the last time I used a serrated blade on anything except for bread, and tomatoes seem to be best down with a very refined edge for me. I did lots of them a few days ago with an AS Kohetsu that is still quite sharp - and I did wipe it down every few slices, but I think the patina is what holds things together - martensite make my edge hold up on the thing even in acidic product. And it is tomato season now - have a few fresh motzarella hunks (coop makes them every day here) and will be at farmers market about 6:30 tomorrow morning - my SO will waken to Caprese tomorrow - have basil in garden, just need more tomatoes (only getting a couple a day right now from the garden), and great heirloom stuff is available for cheap at the farmers markets around here.
Patina & martensite?!? I don’t follow 🤔
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by milkbaby »

This may be applicable: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/01/21/ ... retention/

So perhaps a combination of acidic food plus board contact on a simple carbon steel which causes the edge to dull quickly.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by STPepper9 »

I'm surprised no one has asked about the heat treat /hrc /blacksmith of your knife.. This is another variable that, among the several others already mentioned, could mean a world of difference.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by lsboogy »

pd7077 wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 11:04 pm
lsboogy wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 9:00 pm I can't remember the last time I used a serrated blade on anything except for bread, and tomatoes seem to be best down with a very refined edge for me. I did lots of them a few days ago with an AS Kohetsu that is still quite sharp - and I did wipe it down every few slices, but I think the patina is what holds things together - martensite make my edge hold up on the thing even in acidic product. And it is tomato season now - have a few fresh motzarella hunks (coop makes them every day here) and will be at farmers market about 6:30 tomorrow morning - my SO will waken to Caprese tomorrow - have basil in garden, just need more tomatoes (only getting a couple a day right now from the garden), and great heirloom stuff is available for cheap at the farmers markets around here.
Patina & martensite?!? I don’t follow 🤔
Patina is the dark colored ateel on blade edge that comes from using in acidic food. Most of the time, a blade comes to us as pure austentite (face centered cubic) because we love the nice even color, and as we use it - especially on onions and such - it develops a beautiful patina that can be many molecular levels deep. Martensite is a much harder and more rust resistant form of steel, and why to never scrub steel that has a blue tint. Most of my carbon steel knives have a deep patina - especially those in my kit for volume use.
Patina (martensite) is a body centered cubic form of iron, and austentite is a face centered cubic. Martensite is a much harder form and much more resistant to chemical change - why some force a patina on blades (I do on anything I'm going to use often). Maybe why I have no problem with white steel in tomatoes.

BTW - Jen loved her wake up this morning, and I'll never deny her a day with great food - tomatoes up here are in prime - nothing like fresh heirloom jobs - tart, sweet, and oh so good with a bit of balsamic vinegar, salt, pepper, fresh basil, and fresh mozzerela for wake up with strong coffee
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by Cutuu »

Altadan wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:31 pm
Rufus Leaking wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:16 pm I don’t think it has anything to do with the steel, I think it has everything to do with the fact that you are cutting one of the most difficult food items that exists. Depending on the variety and ripeness, they really need a serrated blade to do them justice. I think your observation is subjective.
+1 on everything but the serrated blade.
I have found there are two ways to consistently execute tomatoes (without reverting to a serrated knife, that is):
1) coarse finish, in the <1k area, or
2) a really careful, well done refined edge

In fact, either road - coarse or refined - demands attention in the sharpening if tomatoes are your subject.
I think white steel can deceptively "easy"to sharpen, resulting in some carelessness, if not sloppiness.

What stone do you finish your knife on?
Yeah, I definitely disagree on needing a serrated blade for tomatoes, with the right edge you can chop the beautifully and slicing is even easier.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by Cutuu »

Jeff B wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:28 pm Yes, the acid from tomatoes can start to dull your knife that fast. Especially with White steel which doesn't have impressive edge retion to begin with.
Depending upon n the white steel heat treatment, it can have piss you off edge retention. Sometimes you have to find the sweet spot for a particular knife. There has been some knifes for whatever reason I just hated the initial edges.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by ronnie_suburban »

milkbaby wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:22 am This may be applicable: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/01/21/ ... retention/

So perhaps a combination of acidic food plus board contact on a simple carbon steel which causes the edge to dull quickly.
Fascinating stuff. Thank you, for the link.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by ChefKnivesToGo »

Jeff B wrote: Sat Sep 07, 2019 12:28 pm Yes, the acid from tomatoes can start to dull your knife that fast. Especially with White steel which doesn't have impressive edge retention, to begin with.
I agree with Jeff. Acid in the product is most likely what is degrading the edge along with contact with your board and the steepness of the angle you're putting on the edge all come into play. White 2 steel gets sharpe quickly and easily and it's not known for great edge retention.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by jacko9 »

I've seen the same edge deterioration cutting tomatoes with my White #1. I just keep using the strop every 5 or 6 slices (or get out my Blue #2 Fuji).
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by ken123 »

STPepper9 wrote: Sun Sep 08, 2019 2:43 am I'm surprised no one has asked about the heat treat /hrc /blacksmith of your knife.. This is another variable that, among the several others already mentioned, could mean a world of difference.
I agree. My Tojiro white steel blades don't hold hold great edges but resharpen easily. My Nubatama white steel blades are another matter. Yes Nubatama has white steel blades. The difference is in the hands of the blacksmith.

I don't rely on serrations for tomatoes.

Keep your carbon steel blades clean using microfiber towels which give you a drier blade than terry cloth towels.

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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?

Post by Radar53 »

Altadan wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:31 pm
Rufus Leaking wrote: Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:16 pm I don’t think it has anything to do with the steel, I think it has everything to do with the fact that you are cutting one of the most difficult food items that exists. Depending on the variety and ripeness, they really need a serrated blade to do them justice. I think your observation is subjective.
+1 on everything but the serrated blade.
I have found there are two ways to consistently execute tomatoes (without reverting to a serrated knife, that is):
1) coarse finish, in the <1k area, or
2) a really careful, well done refined edge

In fact, either road - coarse or refined - demands attention in the sharpening if tomatoes are your subject.
I think white steel can deceptively "easy"to sharpen, resulting in some carelessness, if not sloppiness.

What stone do you finish your knife on?
+1 from me too regarding not needing a serrated blade and on Altadan's summary. I tend to use a coarser finish stone if I'm rushed or feeling lazy, but get a lot of zen from cutting tomatoes using a knife that has a great edge that is nicely refined as well. 8-) 8-)
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