One year I made a big party batch of salsa and the tomatoes killed the edge of my Masamoto KS within minutes. Out came my TF in relief. Pretty sure it was the heat treat that gave the TF the staying power to finish the job and still retain a great edge.
Slicing a tomato or two, though? My serrated blades have been retired from that job. I usually use a blue or AS knife. Or my Yahiko Ice for very thin slices.
White steel vs. Tomatoes?
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?
A good demo of a coarse 120 grit edge for tomato slicing. Over-ripe cherry tomatoes are tough to cut due to the sagging skin.
Note the burr removal technique.
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Ken
Note the burr removal technique.
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Ken
Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?
Zen, huh?Radar53 wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 4:36 pm+1 from me too regarding not needing a serrated blade and on Altadan's summary. I tend to use a coarser finish stone if I'm rushed or feeling lazy, but get a lot of zen from cutting tomatoes using a knife that has a great edge that is nicely refined as well.Altadan wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 11:31 pm+1 on everything but the serrated blade.Rufus Leaking wrote: ↑Fri Sep 06, 2019 10:16 pm I don’t think it has anything to do with the steel, I think it has everything to do with the fact that you are cutting one of the most difficult food items that exists. Depending on the variety and ripeness, they really need a serrated blade to do them justice. I think your observation is subjective.
I have found there are two ways to consistently execute tomatoes (without reverting to a serrated knife, that is):
1) coarse finish, in the <1k area, or
2) a really careful, well done refined edge
In fact, either road - coarse or refined - demands attention in the sharpening if tomatoes are your subject.
I think white steel can deceptively "easy"to sharpen, resulting in some carelessness, if not sloppiness.
What stone do you finish your knife on?
I find that tomatoes give me a much more... carnal sort of pleasure...
“If we conquer our passions it is more from their weakness than from our strength.”
― François de La Rochefoucauld
― François de La Rochefoucauld
Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?
I cut a lot of tomatoes at work, i agree that they can be amongst the most difficult foods to cut. I use the same set up at work for any knife, sg500 or sg1k, sp2k, with the occasional finishing stone far and between. I use knives in a few steels, and they can all cut any tomato fresh off the stones, wheter its the 500, the 1k or the 2k.
I stopped using knives in white steel for the most part at work for a number of reasons, most of them not directly related with the core steel selection, profile, grinds, cladding, and so on being much more of a factor. But i need my work knifes to hold an edge for a good amount of time, and not much knives in white steel live up to what i need from what i have tried. the sole exception for a while being TF.
Cheers,
Ivan
I stopped using knives in white steel for the most part at work for a number of reasons, most of them not directly related with the core steel selection, profile, grinds, cladding, and so on being much more of a factor. But i need my work knifes to hold an edge for a good amount of time, and not much knives in white steel live up to what i need from what i have tried. the sole exception for a while being TF.
Cheers,
Ivan
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?
I have a Tojiro white steel Santuko. I actually had the same problem early with tomatoes. Mark mentioned the solution for me or atleast what helped my edge last a bit longer and that’s back the angle off. I was sharpening that dude at 10-12 degrees and like what’s been said, white steel isn’t known for great edge retention to begin with. After getting the Angel up a bit , somewhere around 17-18 degrees the edge last much longer. Still doesn’t last anything like AS or Blue though.
Interesting observations on the acid. Never really thought that could affect an edge that quickly.
Interesting observations on the acid. Never really thought that could affect an edge that quickly.
“The goal is to die with memories, not dreams.”
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?
This is a great link, thanks for sharing.milkbaby wrote: ↑Sun Sep 08, 2019 1:22 am This may be applicable: https://knifesteelnerds.com/2019/01/21/ ... retention/
So perhaps a combination of acidic food plus board contact on a simple carbon steel which causes the edge to dull quickly.
Seems like a lot of people are all partially right in that it is a combination of things. The knife in question is a tojiro santoku that has been thinned and sharpened to about 12 degrees. No forced patina and very little developed so far. I am cutting many very thin slices but on a Japanese Cyprus cutting board. Interestingly, the knife can go much longer with onions and quite long with the peppers.
So, in summary, sounds like most all of you were right
Thanks ladies and gents.
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Re: White steel vs. Tomatoes?
One thing I'll add (although it was also suggested above) is that this is an area where the so-called "retention" variations between different Hitachi steels is quite obvious.
I find that knives made with Aogami Super - which also generally carry higher hardness ratings - hold an edge for things like tomatoes significantly longer than some other options. I believe this is due to a combination of factors outlined above, but I would stress that one of those factors is that AS both reacts differently to acid AND requires less stropping to maintain the edge (which is significant because stropping itself removes the patina and just makes the blade that much more susceptible to acid corrosion all over again). Together, this means that the AS knife holds a very acute edge longer for at least two reasons: hardness AND resistance to repeated acid exposure via maintenance (or the build up of a stronger and better patina on a more alloyed steel). While my T-F (W#1) seems to hold up well under similar circumstances, the truth is that - in general - this is an area where I find AS knives really, really shine. Too bad is relates to only about 2-3 ingredients...haha. (I find a julienne of green onions to be similar: the skins are often weak enough that they really resist clean penetration while cutting along the length of the onion with all but the very sharpest or toothiest of knives.)
I find that knives made with Aogami Super - which also generally carry higher hardness ratings - hold an edge for things like tomatoes significantly longer than some other options. I believe this is due to a combination of factors outlined above, but I would stress that one of those factors is that AS both reacts differently to acid AND requires less stropping to maintain the edge (which is significant because stropping itself removes the patina and just makes the blade that much more susceptible to acid corrosion all over again). Together, this means that the AS knife holds a very acute edge longer for at least two reasons: hardness AND resistance to repeated acid exposure via maintenance (or the build up of a stronger and better patina on a more alloyed steel). While my T-F (W#1) seems to hold up well under similar circumstances, the truth is that - in general - this is an area where I find AS knives really, really shine. Too bad is relates to only about 2-3 ingredients...haha. (I find a julienne of green onions to be similar: the skins are often weak enough that they really resist clean penetration while cutting along the length of the onion with all but the very sharpest or toothiest of knives.)
~Joe
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and own mostly Konosukes but have used over a dozen brands.