Where's the burr ?

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gloucesterjohn
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Where's the burr ?

Post by gloucesterjohn » Tue Nov 26, 2019 8:35 am

I've been watching the CKTG sharpening forum videos, and more on you tube. And I'm starting to produce some pretty good edges on my Sharpton Pro 1000 / 5000 stones. My knives are certainly passing the 'paper tests' with ease.

But I've never really sure if I've got a Burr. I fell along the opposite edge and can 'maybe' feel a bit, and if I run the knife along my finger nail, I can feel the tug of a burr.

Just wondering if the burr is more of a sensitive test than I had anticipated?

Thanks

My Knives

These were purchased knives in Japan ~ 1960
Very good performing, no idea of manufacturer

Posted an ask about these here - http://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vie ... 12&t=13584

? Sujihikis or Yanagibas 270 mm
? Deba 140 mm
? Bunka 225 mm

Newer purchases

Shun 170mm Santoku (?)
Kajiwara Kurouchi Deba 180mm

Thinking about

Makoto AS Ryusei Gyuto 210mm (more Stainless cladding)
Kato AS Gyuto 210mm
Masakage Koishi Gyuto 210mm Sale (like this, more heft)

jmcnelly85
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by jmcnelly85 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:13 am

Burr detection is a skill that gets better with more practice. I’ve been phasing burr formation out of my technique, sounds like you’re already at that point. As long as you establish a proper apex, you don’t need a burr; however, keep feeling for them, you’ll start noticing smaller and smaller ones over time.


Peter Nowlan
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Peter Nowlan » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:30 am

The burr is there you just can’t feel it yet. Like every other component of the sharpening process, the detection of the burr gets easier in time.
I teach sharpening and in every case the student can’t feel the burr right away when I feel it immediately. I personally think it’s important to form a burr and reach the point where it’s easy to detect. Then, as your sharpening skills develops you’ll learn to minimize the size of the burr yet you’ll still be achieving your goal, to reach the edge of the edge.
You’re getting your knives sharp so you’re doing many things right. Manage your expectations 👍

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Organic
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Organic » Tue Nov 26, 2019 11:43 am

I've seen people use a Q-tip or a small patch of a microfiber dust pad to help in the detection of a burr. You can feel the burr catch on the fibers.

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jbart65
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by jbart65 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 12:09 pm

A burr is easy to raise and detect on a good knife - once you know what you are looking for.

I learned an easy way. My old but very good Chef's choice electric sharpener, which is great for mass-produced German knives, raised a burr in the first step in the process.

Getting a burr on German knives or crummier steel is not as easy, but once you create one, you notice. Push your finger down a blade from spine to tip. The side with the burr will have a small overhang of sorts, jutting out horizontally. You will feel it with your finger and be able to see if when examining the edge closely under a light. The edge is leaning toward one side like the tower of Pisa.

Once you detect your first burr you will never forget. Best way is to take an okay knife and sharpen on one side for a minute or two, using a bit steeper angle than usual. Say 20 to 25 degrees.

Like more experienced sharpeners here I am trying NOT to create burrs anymore. Or just create very small ones. Creating many regular sized burrs over time just removes more metal than needed and shortens the height of a knife, making it necessary to thin more frequently.
Jeffry B

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ken123
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by ken123 » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:14 pm

Well I think knowing how to create a burr is an essential skill. This skill comes first.

I also think knowing how not to create a burr comes next. It is a much more difficult but not impossible skill to attain.

To me the two sides of a blade reach a point where they just meet. At this point there is no burr, no wire edge etc. As you continue, you form a burr. You have exceeded requirements and now have a lesser lower performing edge that needs deburring. IMHO this is unnecessary. Now lets say you are close to generating a burr and advance to the next finer grit and NOW you produce a burr. What use was that first burr?

Now try sharpening a ceramic knife. There is no burr produced, so what do you do? You learn to sharpen without relying on burrs. This is an art of sorts. It is often an approach not commonly agreed upon. I present it as a point of view - nothing more. I do respect other people's approaches to be clear.
---
Ken

Byphy
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Byphy » Tue Nov 26, 2019 10:45 pm

I'm no expert at sharpening but I'm glad I came across this thread. I no longer go burr hunting when I sharpen, or it's a minuscule one. I'm happy with how sharp it gets, so I guess I'm doing something right.

gloucesterjohn
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by gloucesterjohn » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:57 am

Thanks all for the excellent responses ...

Happy Turkey carving !

Cigarguy
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Cigarguy » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:58 am

Christmas is not another month yet but I am looking forward to the Turkey.

Radar53
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Radar53 » Wed Nov 27, 2019 9:29 pm

Hi There John & welcome to the forum.

Burrs is always an interesting topic. There are certainly some talented sharpeners on this forum, who can detect the point of getting to the very edge-of-the-edge and not go any further, so as not to form a burr. To me these guys are Jedi Masters & I am not one of them. Believe me, over many many years, I have tried to feel or look for and find that nirvana point, but generally come away with a blunter knife and heaps of frustration (mainly I think because I don't quite get to the edge-of-the-edge).

So for us mortals, forming a burr is the definitive marker to reaching the edge-of-the-edge. I think the key here is that as you develop your skills that burr can become smaller & smaller. In any sharpening progression, I look to form a uniform burr along the total length of the blade, on the coarsest stone of that progression. If there are nicks or chips in the edge then, to maintain the blade profile, the burr might be a little bit bigger than if the blade is undamaged. This is the stone on which I do the work to create or restore the edge. Once I get the edge even & sharp on this stone, all the burrs from following stones are smaller because all I'm doing is refining the good edge I've already created. By the time I get to a 5 or 6k stone the burr is near undetectable.

In feeling for burrs, I find 2 or 3 things work well for me.
1) Both the blade and my fingertips need to be really dry to get the best results
2) I feel both sides of the edge so that I can get a comparison ie I'm looking to see if one side feels different to the other
3) If I'm struggling to find a difference I close my eyes and repeat 2). I read that sight is such a dominant sense that it can overpower some of what our other senses are telling us.

Lastly, for me I find that the best method of removing burs is with sweeping, almost no pressure, edge leading strokes.

All just my 2c worth & what works for me. YMMV
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

Peter Nowlan
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Peter Nowlan » Thu Nov 28, 2019 6:33 am

Grant, I long to meet one of the Jedi Masters you speak of. (Sharpening is a lonely world actually)
With ref to forming a subtle burr, I always do that. I don’t see the point of not doing it actually. It’s just part of the ritual for me, it’s a signal that what I’ve done over the past minute or two or five has been successful.
As for deburring, whatever works works, I’m sure your method is excellent.

Radar53
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Radar53 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 2:51 pm

Hi Peter. I've pottered around with deburring on the EdgePro for a couple of decades, trying many different variations of technique. The benefit of the EP was that I had pretty much total control of two important things that need to be consistent when comparing options. Those being angle and pressure. So I looked at all sorts of combinations of those with a number of other variables thrown in.

On the EP, grinding the edge is mainly done from heel to tip, but what I found gave me the best burr removal, was alternating from one side of the blade to the other, with very very light, edge leading strokes from tip to heel. On the final stroke(s) for each side I was supporting the full weight of the stone arm, so literally next to no weight.

For the last 2+ years, since adding freehand to my repertoire, I have struggled with burr removal as I have experimented with a number of different techniques. I can sort of "get it done" somehow!

Firstly I think that I'm still building up muscle memory and so my lack of angle control creates problems. I have tried just repeating my sharpening actions with very little pressure, likewise I have tried with edge trailing using a stropping motion, that with a sweeping motion and latterly both of those with edge leading strokes. All good fun and interesting for me to explore, but as previously I think that the critical thing is improving my angle control.

Again this is just what works (or not haha) for me.
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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ken123
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by ken123 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:03 pm

Grant, I like those 3 comments. Very useful.

Unfortunately, I have no aspirations to become a Jedi Master :) I am a mud salesman.

Sharpening can be a lonely journey - a journey of introspection, sometimes an exercise in frustration or elation. I always enjoy a bit of company to both share and acquire knowledge. I would welcome visitors! Perhaps we can share a Jedi moment or two :)

---
Ken

Cigarguy
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Cigarguy » Thu Nov 28, 2019 4:24 pm

Sharpening is the most intelligent way to watch TV, especially live sports. Will all the commercial and other breaks in play, it's nice to switch back and forth from sharpening to the game.

I was and never have been one obsessive about the burr. For me it's more about the "apex". The two are obviously related and to some it's one and the same. My goal is to get to the apex asap while producing as small a burr as need be. I never found burr removal to be that difficult even on the crappiest cheap Chinese made steel. Rub both sides of a knife on a stone for long enough and one will get an apex and burr.

Radar53
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Radar53 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:23 pm

Ken, I'd love to drop by and have a chat if it wasn't for the 21,000km return trip :( :(

I really like getting other people's views on all sorts of things because someone says something from way left field and it sparks a whole different view. We don't know what we don't know!

Despite trying desperately not to, I've got a toe in the water with JNats, but man I just don't need another rabbit hole to climb into. But I'm starting to sense that resistance is becoming somewhat futile :roll: :roll:
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

Cigarguy
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Cigarguy » Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:34 pm

Stone is Borg! Resistance is futile.

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ken123
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by ken123 » Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:18 pm

Mixing metaphors, but if I were a Jedi Master, I would just beam you up for a good session! The engines might fail beaming up my stones to you. Ill check with Scotty about this.
Perhaps a Vulcan mindmeld is in order :)

We should have a chat about Japanese Naturals. I use skype a lot for this ( k_schwartz ).

---
Ken

Radar53
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Radar53 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:42 pm

Cigarguy wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 5:34 pm
Stone is Borg! Resistance is futile.
Yes, assimilation worries me :lol:
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

Radar53
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Re: Where's the burr ?

Post by Radar53 » Fri Nov 29, 2019 1:47 pm

ken123 wrote:
Thu Nov 28, 2019 7:18 pm
We should have a chat about Japanese Naturals.
Hi Ken, thanks for the offer. I might take you up on this and give you a call in the new year. My credit card's taken a bit of a hiding this year already. I have this foreboding sense of déja vu ...........
Cheers Grant

Just because you're not paranoid doesn't mean they're not going to get you!!

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