Newbie, stone advice

[petitcanard]

Hello! I've been lurking for some time, and have been enjoying the rabbit hole very much (maybe too much haha) So this is my first post.

I'm new to the JK world but did cook professionally for about 6 years (in the dim dark past) and so have (subjectively) passable knife skills. My husband has bought me my very first JKs for xmas!! I'm so excited but am a complete newbie when it comes to the different steels and sharpening properly. Up until now I've used a diamond steel on my (decent 25 years ago) Henckels. So - I'm definitely starting from scratch. I've spent considerable time poking around here and watching the recommended vids and such but am feeling a bit overwhelmed with all of the info.

It seems that maybe the steel influences what stones will be best but I'm not sure about that so thought I'd ask. I'll be receiving an Anryu AS 240 gyuto and a Tanaka ginsan Nashiji 180 santoku.

I think perhaps I should also find a beater knife to practice on - any advice there? I have my Henckels but they're German so the angles will be different. I definitely don't want to wreck the shiny new JKs!

And am hoping for advice on a good starter set up? I'm pretty sure at minimum I'll need a 1000 (?), a flattening stone (recommendations for Mark's $30 one noted), a stone holder and some sort of strop...? Given my lack of experience it seems silly to rush out and spend a ton when I've no clue what I'm doing.

Help?

Thank you so much, and I'm so happy I came across this forum!!

Cheers,
Melissa

[cliff]

Dear Melissa,

First, those are great knives -- you will be very happy. You will not wreck your knives with a 1K stone or finer, though there could be some stray scratches. It took me a couple of months to get proficient enough to avoid stray scratches -- I am no master by any stretch.

I got Mark's starter kit, which included a dirt cheap stainless knife. You could practice on the Henckels, even though the angles will be different. At the end of the day, once you're comfortable finding the edge, you'll quickly adjust to the appropriate angle. The steels are also very different and respond differently on the stones. A couple of years in, I'm still using the Imanishi combo 1k/6k stone I started with. I needs to be soaked, which is an issue, but it has served me well. You need something to flatten the stone(s) you get. The rest is optional. You can use the Imanishi without a stone holder. Strops are not expensive, so I would get one; but you don't absolutely need it. You might also consider a felt block to remove the burr, or just use a cork.

[nakneker]

Well Melissa I’m glad you posted your question. Your certain to get some great advice by some truly knowledgeable people. I started j knives a couple years ago and the sharpening stones naturally followed. When I started sharpening I bought way too many stones, that’s how I am, I like to put my hands on things. I also watched a lot of videos from many sources, many of those videos gave some really bad advise.

I would suggest a couple of things. Start out with 2,3 or 4 stones and learn how to become proficient with those before buying any more. Personally I’d recommend a 500 grit, a 1k and a 3 or 5k. Any stones sold here will do a good job. I like the shapton glass stones and the Shapton pro stones, I’m also huge Cerax fan. You could choose from the others and get what you need too. Shapton glass stones are easy to use, true splash and glows and work and a wide variety of steels.

As far as videos there are a bunch here that offer great instruction and good information. Mark (one of the owners of CKTG) and Peter Nowlan are the ones I watched the most, some of them multiple times. I also bought a Tojiro santuko for 30 bucks in white steel to practice on. It’s very easy knife to sharpen, the white steel is also a confidence builder, it’s sharpens very easily. I have practiced on that knife many many times. Sometimes I would sharpen it and then blunt the edge and do it again and again, I learned a lot doing that and would recommend that for practice.

Remember that your not gonna get magical edges right off the bat. It takes some practice, If you get stuck ask more questions. Your edges will progress with time and as you get better and better so will your confidence and sense of accomplishment. For many of us sharpening knives is a joy and can be some nice me time, therapeutic so to speak.

I’m one of the newbie dudes here but you’ll get some good advise. One last thing, if you ever find yourself frustrated, if things just aren’t flowing, take a break. I would advise sharpening when your in a learning or good mood, when the vibe is right. The muscle memory will come and so will the edges. Peter Nowlan explains the pressure to be used very well and in an easy way to understand, that was the video that helped me the most.

[jbart65]

I resisted learning to sharpen and was very intimidated when I began my J knife journey four years ago, but I am very glad I did. Feels great to get my knives sharper than a razor in just five or 10 minutes of work.

Sharpening can be a high art that requires years to master. Yet the truth is I learned to get my edges as sharp as when they arrived within a few months after I started to learn how to sharpen. It isn't hard to be able to do just that.

For newcomers I recommend keeping it as simple as possible. A flattening stone is necessary, of course. I also prefer splash and go sharpening stones for newcomers given their ease and relatively inexpensive cost. At first a medium grit and high grit is all you need. Most J knives don't need a full progression right away. Later add a low grit stone

I'd start out with:

CKTG flattening stone: $30
Shapton Pro 1000: $45
Shapton Pro 5000 $70
Sharpening angle guide: $9 https://www.chefknivestogo.com/anguforshst.html
Suehiro stone holder: $35 https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sustho.html

Want to go cheaper? Get a 1/5 K Cerax combo stone for $60.

Later you can add a low-grit stone. I'd rec the Shapton Glass 500 or Chosera 400, but you can go Shapton Pro 320 to keep it in the family.

Also get a strop kit, either now or later. I have balsa with 1 micron spray, leather with 0.5 micron spray and bare kangeroo. The 3x8 size will fit the Suehiro stone holder. Several CKTG kits include a 3x11 plate for 3x11 strops. The strop kits run from $40 to $70 or build your own.

Like Nakenker I bought a Tojiro white steel knife to practice on. Dull the edge on the SIDE of a sharpening stone and resharpen. Cheapo knives have such crummy steel in most cases that it's harder to sharpen them. Vics aren't bad to sharpen on. Maybe look at garage sales for old carbon or decent German knives to practice on.

The hardest part learning to sharpen for me was whether to use my dominant hand for both sides of a knife. Or switch hands. I ended up switching hands, but that required even more practice. It just didnt feel comfortable for me to use only my dominant hand since the motions for each side of the blade are different.

Many others use just their dominant hand and do just fine.

Don't be intimidated. Sharpening can be as simple or as complicated as you want it to be. But with a little bit of practice it really isn't hard to get a good edge on most of a blade in a short amount of time (tips can be a bit trickier on some knives, but that's another story).

Oh, and one other thing. When you get your new knives, feel the edges gingerly with the tip of your fingers. Remember that feeling. Compare to the knives you already have. The edges should feel "crisp."

Then take a piece of printing paper and slice on the diagonal. The knife should go through cleanly, even if you just push the edge against the paper.

Then cut a few things: grapes, cherry tomatoes, bell peppers, onions, potatoes. REMEMBER the feeling,

That's your benchmark for the future.

[cliff]

I would add that while my Imanishi combination stone is the most affordable way to get started and I have come really to appreciate it, it is not the best for a beginner. The 6K side is quite soft. It's great for polishing things like single bevels or reactive, iron clad knives, but it is more difficult to feel what you're doing. In that vein, I would second the advice for the Shapton Pros. They are nearly as affordable, more so than the glass stones, and splash and go, which matters more than I would have thought. They are harder stones and I think easier to feel the edge. I've never tried the Cerax stones, but I think they're on the softer side.

I would start with the 1K and 5K and take it from there. I'd avoid anything lower than, say 800, until you feel a little more comfortable.

[Peter Nowlan]

You have some good advice here.
Looking back at my long list of sharpening related mistakes, I’ll give you some advice.
Go with a coarse, medium and fine combination and make sure you have a flattening plan. Don’t sweat the brands to much, they all work and a novice will likely have a hard time seeing the difference in them.
As for a coarse stone, this was one of big mistakes, I didn’t focus on anything below 1,000 grit.

Do not be afraid to buy a 400 or 500 or even 220 grit stone. Even when I was the village idiot in my sharpening world and got my first 400 grit stone, I never ruined a knife. These coarse stones are confidence builders because they can help you form that all important burr quickly. You’ll struggle less and you’ll enjoy the process. Don’t be afraid of using a coarse stone on day one, just a matter of utilizing pressure accordingly and having a little coarse stone courage.

[Radar53]

Hi There Melissa and welcome finally to the forum. Plenty of good advice above.

I've been sharpening using a jig for ages and branched out to include freehand 2 or 3 years ago. I like something that Peter Nowan said "As for a coarse stone, this was one of big mistakes, I didn’t focus on anything below 1,000 grit." I like it because one of the things I struggled with early on was understanding the feedback I was getting off the stone. I found it really hard to know if I had the bevel properly on the stone. What I found was that I could do this better on my coarsest stone, but it was just by guess and by God on anything above a 1k stone.

So I spent a long time on a Nubatama 150 just trying to lock in that bevel & that feel. You probably wouldn't need to go that low. Nakneker & Peter have suggested a 500 grit stone may be a Shapton Glass. I would suggest looking at the Suehiro Kohetsu 800 https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ko800grshst.html for $55. I think that this has more feedback than the SG500 and in my opinion cuts probably as aggressively. I doesn't dish easily and if you work it with light pressures it can deliver a better than 800k finish. It works with pretty much all steels including stainless Euro knives and really hard PM steels. One downside is that it does require a short soak.

As you get the hang of freehand you could then pair the K800 with it's sister stone the Kohetsu 2k and this pair would see you right for a considerable period.

In terms of your diamond steel please don't use this on any of your Japanese knives.

HTH, just my 2c worth.

[petitcanard]

You guys are a big help! Thank you so much! I might just pick up a Tojiro gyuto 210 in w#2 - price seems reasonable and I think a better size for sharpening (and doesn't overlap the knives I'll be getting). I'll want a petty eventually but think bigger is better (?) for learning to sharpen and I might even find uses for that size outside of annihilating it learning to sharpen

Re stones and such, I'm eyeballing the SP set Mark has on for $210... is that a good option to start? It seems to cover all the basics and a few of you have recommended SP... I could buy it all separately and ditch the loupe and sharpie and maybe angle guides but it would be the same price. Or I could go with buying separately and doing the K800 or SG500 (downsides noted) also suggested, if maybe the 320 is too aggressive?

320
1000
5000
140 plate
deburrer thingy, angle guides, loupe, tray, sharpie

I think those flat trays look maybe less hassle than the clamp-type ones? (and will contain the mess a bit)

Thoughts?

[petitcanard]

Oh and yes, Grant - definitely my steel will come nowhere near the shiny new knives!

[Radar53]

Hi Melissa.

I think that your progression of stones, along with the flattening plate would work very well, and as others have said, pretty much any flavour / brand that you buy from Mark, will do the business very well. Just a couple of other comments.

I prefer to remove my burrs by grinding them off, rather than using hard felt or those sorts of things. My thinking is that pulling the blade (& burr) through a felt of balsa block tends to rip the burr off, which I think leaves small / micro fractures on the edge. This is just what works for me and others on the forum have differing views, so have a look at earlier threads and choose what you think will serve you best.

If you haven't read the very recent thread on burr removal check it out here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13640 and certainly have a look at Peter Nowlan's own blog on this here http://sharpenerpete.blogspot.com/ Peter's blog is a fantastic resource for budding knife sharpeners. He covers loads of topics very well and has been a real help to many sharpeners on this forum, me included definitely.

In terms of stone holders. Yep I've tried some, but do most of my sharpening using just a wet & folded paper towel on a very basic home made sink bridge. The wet towel overlaps the edges of the stone by maybe 25 - 30 mm all around and sort of acts as a bit of a filter. So the water goes through and the grinding grits & swarf are captured by the paper and at the end of the session I fold the towel up and just put it in the rubbish. A quick rinse of the stone(s) & sink bridge and all the clean-up is done. Strangely this also helps with pressure control. If it starts to move around while I'm sharpening, then I'm using too much pressure!!

If you want to explore strops then, as an intro, you can strop on newsprint very successfully, or an old leather handbag or belt and see where that leads you.

One of the more interesting things that I have learned since joining this forum 5+ years ago is that there is no one right answer. So for any query, you will get a number of differing answers / responses. It can be a bit challenging to sort through all that because most of them obviously work for the respondent, but sharpening is quite a personal thing and you have to try & find out just what works best for you. That's half the fun!!

YMMV

[Ut_ron]

No the SP320 is not to aggressive. I use it all the time on my friends dull knives. You probably will never go back hat low on your new knives.

[jbart65]

By all means, Melissa, get a low-grit stone as well if you can afford it with your first purchase of stones. I agree entirely with Peter and Grant that a low-grit stone is essential for the reasons they stated, but I generally refrain from recommending one to newcomer for budgetary reasons.

I remember when I was looking to get my first knife. Everyone said I needed to buy stones and learn to sharpen. I was thinking to myself, first I have to spend $ $200 to get a great knife - and then I have to drop a few hundred on sharpening stones? Yowsa!

I don’t want to scare off newcomers or those on a very limited budget! (-:

I initially bought a Shapton Pro 1000 and 5000. It was all I needed the first three to six months. These knives come quite sharp and don’t need much more than a touchup at first.

After less than six months, I added a 320 Shapton Pro. Mainly I did so to practice sharpening on other knives, many of which really needed to start on a low grit.

If you are going the three-stone route, I’d recommend the 500-1000-4000 grit Shapton Glass package on CKTG. Splash and go keeps it simple. Want somewhat softer soaking stones in the future? Sell your Shaptons on the CKTG classified page and buy new ones. That’s what I did.

The loupe is unnecessary until you become proficient at sharpening, imo. I have one and seldom use it.

Angle guide isn’t necessary either, but I like to use it now and then just to judge my angles.

Sharpie? I just grabbed one from my draw that I already had. Deburrer thingie? A cork works fine, but like Grant, I prefer to sharpen off my burrs instead of potentially tearing them off.

The stone tray is fine - I have one for travel. But be aware that some short stones like Shapton Glass might not have enough clearance for your wrists if they are sitting on it au naturale.

I do really like the Suehiro stone holder, but you can make your own sink bridge and use a wet paper towel like Grant.

I made a simple sink bridge with leftover two-by-four wood. Screwed in a few pieces of wood underneath to keep it tight against the sink.

You can see an example of one here:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/thre ... dge.11091/

Last thing. Be careful with the low grit stone. I used it too much too soon on a few of my initally purchased J knives. I removed more metal than necessary and thickened the blade behind the edge enough to affect cutting prowess.

Use dull needs that really need it until you get the hang of it. Then use on your good knives. (-:

[Jeff B]

You have some good advice here.
Looking back at my long list of sharpening related mistakes, I’ll give you some advice.
Go with a coarse, medium and fine combination and make sure you have a flattening plan. Don’t sweat the brands to much, they all work and a novice will likely have a hard time seeing the difference in them.
As for a coarse stone, this was one of big mistakes, I didn’t focus on anything below 1,000 grit.

Do not be afraid to buy a 400 or 500 or even 220 grit stone. Even when I was the village idiot in my sharpening world and got my first 400 grit stone, I never ruined a knife. These coarse stones are confidence builders because they can help you form that all important burr quickly. You’ll struggle less and you’ll enjoy the process. Don’t be afraid of using a coarse stone on day one, just a matter of utilizing pressure accordingly and having a little coarse stone courage.

Couldn't agree more.

When I first started sharpening I had a 1k and 6k stones. It took FOREVER, it seemed, to get a good edge on a dull knife with the 1k. I thought I must be the problem. I soon bought a 320 stone and it changed my whole outlook about sharpening. There will be times when 1k just isn't enough.

[Kramer]

Polishing on a 6k after 1k seems to be very efficient. But if your knife is too dull, something <=600 would be nice before going 1k. These will give you a very nice working edge.
If you want to refine the edge further, from my perspective after 6k, stropping with diamond paste on a hard leather is sufficient.

[nakneker]

You guys are a big help! Thank you so much! I might just pick up a Tojiro gyuto 210 in w#2 - price seems reasonable and I think a better size for sharpening (and doesn't overlap the knives I'll be getting). I'll want a petty eventually but think bigger is better (?) for learning to sharpen and I might even find uses for that size outside of annihilating it learning to sharpen

Re stones and such, I'm eyeballing the SP set Mark has on for $210... is that a good option to start? It seems to cover all the basics and a few of you have recommended SP... I could buy it all separately and ditch the loupe and sharpie and maybe angle guides but it would be the same price. Or I could go with buying separately and doing the K800 or SG500 (downsides noted) also suggested, if maybe the 320 is too aggressive?

320
1000
5000
140 plate
deburrer thingy, angle guides, loupe, tray, sharpie

I think those flat trays look maybe less hassle than the clamp-type ones? (and will contain the mess a bit)

Thoughts?

I think that would be a great place to start and give you years of service. I have a Nakiri I’m happy to donate to your cause. It’s a great knife to practice on. If you had that and that tojiro 210 you would have a couple of great practice knives. The knife was given to me for the same purpose, it would be good to pass it out on.

[Jeff B]

...Re stones and such, I'm eyeballing the SP set Mark has on for $210... is that a good option to start? It seems to cover all the basics and a few of you have recommended SP... I could buy it all separately and ditch the loupe and sharpie and maybe angle guides but it would be the same price. Or I could go with buying separately and doing the K800 or SG500 (downsides noted) also suggested, if maybe the 320 is too aggressive?

320
1000
5000
140 plate
deburrer thingy, angle guides, loupe, tray, sharpie

I think those flat trays look maybe less hassle than the clamp-type ones? (and will contain the mess a bit)

Thoughts?

That is pretty much my default set. Does an excellent job on anything you will put to it. I still use a stone holder in the tray, it's just easier having the stone elevated more. Suehiro Deluxe Stone Holder is very nice and worth the money. https://www.chefknivestogo.com/sustho.html

[petitcanard]

I think that would be a great place to start and give you years of service. I have a Nakiri I’m happy to donate to your cause. It’s a great knife to practice on. If you had that and that tojiro 210 you would have a couple of great practice knives. The knife was given to me for the same purpose, it would be good to pass it out on.

Oh my gosh, really?!! I'd be so grateful!!! Thank you so much!! And I would pass it on when I get the hang of it as well!!!

[petitcanard]

By all means, Melissa, get a low-grit stone as well if you can afford it with your first purchase of stones. I agree entirely with Peter and Grant that a low-grit stone is essential for the reasons they stated, but I generally refrain from recommending one to newcomer for budgetary reasons.

I remember when I was looking to get my first knife. Everyone said I needed to buy stones and learn to sharpen. I was thinking to myself, first I have to spend $ $200 to get a great knife - and then I have to drop a few hundred on sharpening stones? Yowsa!

I don’t want to scare off newcomers or those on a very limited budget! (-:

I do very much appreciate that!! I'd definitely be looking for something less pricey to start out with, but my husb is purchasing the knives for me and xmas from my family is a bit of cash to put toward stones

The loupe is unnecessary until you become proficient at sharpening, imo. I have one and seldom use it.

Angle guide isn’t necessary either, but I like to use it now and then just to judge my angles.

Sharpie? I just grabbed one from my draw that I already had. Deburrer thingie? A cork works fine, but like Grant, I prefer to sharpen off my burrs instead of potentially tearing them off.

The stone tray is fine - I have one for travel. But be aware that some short stones like Shapton Glass might not have enough clearance for your wrists if they are sitting on it au naturale.

I do really like the Suehiro stone holder, but you can make your own sink bridge and use a wet paper towel like Grant.

I made a simple sink bridge with leftover two-by-four wood. Screwed in a few pieces of wood underneath to keep it tight against the sink.

You can see an example of one here:

https://www.kitchenknifeforums.com/thre ... dge.11091/

Last thing. Be careful with the low grit stone. I used it too much too soon on a few of my initally purchased J knives. I removed more metal than necessary and thickened the blade behind the edge enough to affect cutting prowess.

Use dull needs that really need it until you get the hang of it. Then use on your good knives. (-:

Yes, I've already got a sharpie and a loupe but am interested in the angle guides just until I get a feel for it. The sets are actually the same price or less than the individual bits without the unnecessaries, otherwise I'd just piece it together I do like the look of that sink bridge! And definitely good advice re not going to aggressive on the lower grit stones, oh dear! Thank you for the tips!

Hi Melissa.

I think that your progression of stones, along with the flattening plate would work very well, and as others have said, pretty much any flavour / brand that you buy from Mark, will do the business very well. Just a couple of other comments.

I prefer to remove my burrs by grinding them off, rather than using hard felt or those sorts of things. My thinking is that pulling the blade (& burr) through a felt of balsa block tends to rip the burr off, which I think leaves small / micro fractures on the edge. This is just what works for me and others on the forum have differing views, so have a look at earlier threads and choose what you think will serve you best.

If you haven't read the very recent thread on burr removal check it out here viewtopic.php?f=4&t=13640 and certainly have a look at Peter Nowlan's own blog on this here http://sharpenerpete.blogspot.com/ Peter's blog is a fantastic resource for budding knife sharpeners. He covers loads of topics very well and has been a real help to many sharpeners on this forum, me included definitely.

In terms of stone holders. Yep I've tried some, but do most of my sharpening using just a wet & folded paper towel on a very basic home made sink bridge. The wet towel overlaps the edges of the stone by maybe 25 - 30 mm all around and sort of acts as a bit of a filter. So the water goes through and the grinding grits & swarf are captured by the paper and at the end of the session I fold the towel up and just put it in the rubbish. A quick rinse of the stone(s) & sink bridge and all the clean-up is done. Strangely this also helps with pressure control. If it starts to move around while I'm sharpening, then I'm using too much pressure!!

If you want to explore strops then, as an intro, you can strop on newsprint very successfully, or an old leather handbag or belt and see where that leads you.

One of the more interesting things that I have learned since joining this forum 5+ years ago is that there is no one right answer. So for any query, you will get a number of differing answers / responses. It can be a bit challenging to sort through all that because most of them obviously work for the respondent, but sharpening is quite a personal thing and you have to try & find out just what works best for you. That's half the fun!!

YMMV

Thank you! I'll definitely check out the conversation on deburring! I have leather hanging around so will give that a go. The paper towel makes sense as I imagine stone grit isn't particularly good for the sink!

[petitcanard]

I really appreciate all the help and advice, everyone, thank you! It's made my decision so much easier I've ordered the SP set and the Tojiro gyotu for now, and will work on making myself a little sink bridge and will pick up that suggested holder once I've got that figured out. My xmas knives arrive tomorrow, I'm so excited! (even though I just get a quick look before they're put away on me until Xmas boohoo!!)

[nakneker]

I think that would be a great place to start and give you years of service. I have a Nakiri I’m happy to donate to your cause. It’s a great knife to practice on. If you had that and that tojiro 210 you would have a couple of great practice knives. The knife was given to me for the same purpose, it would be good to pass it out on.

Oh my gosh, really?!! I'd be so grateful!!! Thank you so much!! And I would pass it on when I get the hang of it as well!!!

I sent you a PM