Reason for mid grit stone

[cwillett]

I've been free hand sharpening now for around 6 months using an Atoma 140, Suehiro Cerax 1000, and Suehiro Rika 5000. My edges are pretty solid right now and I'm scratching the knives less and gouging the stones more rarely. I bought these based on many of the posts here. Some sharpeners seem to prefer a mid grit stone in their progression, usually a 2000 or 3000 grit stone. It seems that some sharpeners stop at the mid grit stone, preferring a "toothier" bite for things like tomatoes or peppers. But others cite a mid grit stone as a stop over to the higher grit stones. Is there a tangible benefit to something like 1000-2/3000-5000? Does the 2/3000 just lessen the time spent on the 5k? Are there other benefits to inserting a mid grit stone in my sharpening routine?

[Ourorboros]

It would make the jump to the finer stone smaller, decreasing the time on the finer stone. I've seen a vid where a guy used every stone in the Shapton Glass progression, spending little time on each.

[Peter Nowlan]

I have never been one to worry about a toothy edge for certain vegetables, I have never thought of my edge as having to be toothy so it could penetrate the skin of a fruit or vegetable. I usually use a 3 stone combo, 400, 1k, 5k. Sometimes, depending on the knife it is a 400, 2k finish.

I ran a bunch of experiments at home where I would sharpen a knife using every stone I had, 400, 1k, 2k etc up to 8k and then test it on a tomato and I couldn't cut it well, it wouldn't fall through the tomato. I notched it back a little to 3k and it would. HOWEVER, that is no longer the case. I discovered that as my skill improved,and it took several years, the more precisely (human precision) that I could bring side A and side B together at the Apex, I learned, again through experimentation on some poor tomatoes that I could pass the tomato test, regardless of the stones I used, whether it is a 3k or 8k finish and highly polished. Again, this did not come without a lot of sharpening but it came eventually, several hundred tomatoes were killed during this period.

My decision on what stone to finish on is now based purely on quality of the knife and sometimes, the mood I am in, what I am trying to achieve not whether or not it will cut a tomato. I will stress that this is as it is today, it has not always been the case.

Every day I wonder how much more I am going to learn about sharpening, it motivates me.

[Rufus Leaking]

If you were to examine a knife edge under a microscope or, say a 60x loupe after your first stone, you'd see scratches. The idea of the progression up is to eliminate these scratches, and make finer scratches the next stone will take care of by removing the material above these scratches, and leaving finer, more shallow scratches which the next stone will replace with even FINER and more shallow scratches. I've found that, unless I've got a knife that is really dull, I don't need the lower grit; I start @1k, but I spend a relatively good amount of time there- say 4 passes of 10strokes, two per side. I count the strokes. I go to 2k next, and I spend a little more time there- 4 passes of 15 strokes- then to 5k, where I will do about the same. Unless I'm going to create a wire, I don't see the need for anything more. I use a loupe, and there are steels that require more time- my blue steel knives, one in particular needs a 400 stone to start with, and it needs considerably more time than any of my other knives, but I don't see- and I mean SEE, using magnification - the benefit of using more than four stones, tops, and I've got a total of two combination stones and four single grit stones, and I actually really like sharpening. The more stones you use, the greater your chances of screwing up your consistent sharpening angle.

[milkbaby]

I ran a bunch of experiments at home where I would sharpen a knife using every stone I had, 400, 1k, 2k etc up to 8k and then test it on a tomato and I couldn't cut it well, it wouldn't fall through the tomato. I notched it back a little to 3k and it would. HOWEVER, that is no longer the case. I discovered that as my skill improved,and it took several years, the more precisely (human precision) that I could bring side A and side B together at the Apex, I learned, again through experimentation on some poor tomatoes that I could pass the tomato test, regardless of the stones I used, whether it is a 3k or 8k finish and highly polished. Again, this did not come without a lot of sharpening but it came eventually, several hundred tomatoes were killed during this period.

Thank you for posting this. Now I want to copy and paste it into every Internet thread that says their knife edge was "too polished" to cut a tomato anymore! :rolleyes:

I agree with Rufus about the scratch pattern, though I personally don't have a good understanding of how it affects the performace attributes of the edge. I bet it's easier to get a good clean and keen edge apex when using more intermediate stones, but as Rufus notes (and perhaps Peter indirectly) that's also more chances to botch the job too.

[Kalaeb]

Some people stop on a 2-3 k stone for kitchen work. Going from a 1k to a 5k IMO is reasonable for a little refinement but still maintaining some toothiness.

Until I got a 6 k diamond I stopped at a 2k Shapton.

[Kit Craft]

I ran a bunch of experiments at home where I would sharpen a knife using every stone I had, 400, 1k, 2k etc up to 8k and then test it on a tomato and I couldn't cut it well, it wouldn't fall through the tomato. I notched it back a little to 3k and it would. HOWEVER, that is no longer the case. I discovered that as my skill improved,and it took several years, the more precisely (human precision) that I could bring side A and side B together at the Apex, I learned, again through experimentation on some poor tomatoes that I could pass the tomato test, regardless of the stones I used, whether it is a 3k or 8k finish and highly polished. Again, this did not come without a lot of sharpening but it came eventually, several hundred tomatoes were killed during this period.

Thank you for posting this. Now I want to copy and paste it into every Internet thread that says their knife edge was "too polished" to cut a tomato anymore! :rolleyes:

I agree with Rufus about the scratch pattern, though I personally don't have a good understanding of how it affects the performace attributes of the edge. I bet it's easier to get a good clean and keen edge apex when using more intermediate stones, but as Rufus notes (and perhaps Peter indirectly) that's also more chances to botch the job too.

While I agree I still feel that an edge with more "tooth" feels differently when going through product. Not exponentially so but noticeable. However, I will say that in my experience, which is limited, said feeling is dependent on more than just the finishing grit. While it may be self serving, I have only ever conducted experiments limited to my own desires, which I feel is justified as a home cook who typically only sharpens his own knives.

As for a "toothy edge" itself I often wonder just how much "bite" people are talking about when they site their desire for a "toothy" or "polished edge". I can still get bite at the 8k+/- stage depending on the knife I am sharpening, the steel it is made out of and the particular heat treat applied. Setting that aside and using typical quality carbon I would say at the 8k level the edge would still have "tooth/bite" in the sense that if you drag it along your nail it will slice into the nail, slightly, and with no pressure. Again, that is in my experience and for me that is more than enough to dig into veggie skin etc. On the other hand if I were to stop with the same knife of the same steel at say 1-2k it will dig into the nail and not budge. So the question would be, which would be defined as "toothy" or would be have differing levels of "tooth" without being overly polished. I will add that these two edges on the same knife will still feel differently, even if slightly, while going through product. However, as I said before other factors such as grind and finish come into play as well but I am assuming that all things are equal at this point.

This often times makes me wonder if what people are calling overly polished edges are actually rounded edges.

Having said that, there are a number of reasons that I personally do not typically take a knife past the 5-6k level and are likely not quantifiable or at least unlike to be shared by another person using the same setup as it is simply cohesive with my taste, needs and or patience. Other reasons outside of performance dictate this as well, such as my own perceived practicality of doing such.

Regardless, I always enjoy these types of discussion as they allow me to see the views of other, more experienced sharpeners and it makes me question my own methods and or desires.

[Radar53]

I generally use a 2X progression & find it good balance, as it means that finer stones are not doing heavier lifting, than is optimal for them. This means that not grinding away for longer than necessary and thus wearing out the stone. I know sharpeners who use larger jumps & similarly sharpeners who use smaller jumps than the 2X. Go for what works for you.

I agree with Peter Nowlan on refined edges with regards to cutting. I like refined edges and don't have any problems cutting ripe tomatoes or peppers etc with edges off my Edge Pro. However my freehand edges are still a work in progress & I think that Kit has hit the nail on the head with "This often times makes me wonder if what people are calling overly polished edges are actually rounded edges. " As I get to finer stones, I'm much less accurate with maintaining the desired angle and seen to manage to do a good job of bluntening my previous relatively good edge!!! So at this stage I am stopping at 2k for my freehand efforts, until I can develop better muscle memory.

[ken123]

I do agree with much of this. Pete, you've expressed this particularly well. First you must master 1k edges, but then when further refining efges you need to do this with precision or you get dull shiny edges )

Now there is a fallacy that less stones = less chances for screwups. If you jump from a 1k to 5k, the 5k is doing 2k work slowly at first so you are doing more total strokes, hence more likely that you will produce an errant stroke. You also dish your fine stone unnecessarily, causing more wear and a less precise and consistent surface during the sessioon. How much of a jump is ideal will depend on the abrasion resistance of the steel, the 'power' of the stone, etc.

---
Ken

[Robstreperous]

Isn't there also a pretty well accepted school of thought that slicers for meat should end on a middle grit stone? Somewhere around 2 to 3 K?

[ken123]

Isn't there also a pretty well accepted school of thought that slicers for meat should end on a middle grit stone? Somewhere around 2 to 3 K?

Not a universal agreement

---
Ken

[Robstreperous]

Isn't there also a pretty well accepted school of thought that slicers for meat should end on a middle grit stone? Somewhere around 2 to 3 K?

Not a universal agreement

---
Ken

OK. I see where you're going. Let me narrow the question.

How about for meats with "bark" like a smoked brisket or pastrami? Or how about a crispy chicken/poultry? Or how about a hard crusted bread?

For corner cases like those - using a slicer such as a suji - is there still a school that would say sharpen to a higher grit?

[Kalaeb]

Isn't there also a pretty well accepted school of thought that slicers for meat should end on a middle grit stone? Somewhere around 2 to 3 K?

I have never heard this, but curious what other do. I take my protein knives up the 6-8k range and leave my dailys/produce knives at 2k.

[Robstreperous]

Thinking a little bit more about this, I'd always believed I should keep my "processor" knives with an even coarser finish than that. I keep my honesuki and butchring knives at 1500.

There was some sort of rationale given for the slicers at 2 - 3 K as being easier to get through connective tissue I think. Regarding bark and bread I feel I definitely want the teeth. Skin I can get through with a high polish but I don't exactly have a single knife just for carving poultry.

[Kit Craft]

I have not had an issue with raw meat but yeah I prefer a ton of tooth on cooked meat. So much so that I use a bread knife, lol. I love my Tojiro bread knife as I use it for so, so much.

Regardless of the reason, I still find I prefer an edge in the 3-6k range. Maybe it is that I am not a proficient enough sharpener or that my knife skills are not up to par but I really have found no advantage in going higher. That has less to do with toothy vs polished and more to do with my own perceived notion of practicality as previously stated.

That said, I could live with an edge off of a fine india too...

[gladius]

I've been free hand sharpening now for around 6 months using an Atoma 140, Suehiro Cerax 1000, and Suehiro Rika 5000. My edges are pretty solid right now and I'm scratching the knives less and gouging the stones more rarely. I bought these based on many of the posts here. Some sharpeners seem to prefer a mid grit stone in their progression, usually a 2000 or 3000 grit stone. It seems that some sharpeners stop at the mid grit stone, preferring a "toothier" bite for things like tomatoes or peppers. But others cite a mid grit stone as a stop over to the higher grit stones. Is there a tangible benefit to something like 1000-2/3000-5000? Does the 2/3000 just lessen the time spent on the 5k? Are there other benefits to inserting a mid grit stone in my sharpening routine?

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Your Cerax 1k IS your mid grit and you can easily jump to the 5k w/o issue and not have to add another stone between. The reason you may want to add a 2k stone e.g. is if you plan on very high grit refinement or finishing on natural stones. You will most likely benefit more from adding a good 400 grit stone to transition from the coarse Atoma plate to mid-grit range. You will spend less time on the 1k & 5k and produce a nicer finish.

[ken123]

"How about for meats with "bark" like a smoked brisket or pastrami? Or how about a crispy chicken/poultry? Or how about a hard crusted bread?

For corner cases like those - using a slicer such as a suji - is there still a school that would say sharpen to a higher grit?"

Well for things like crusty breads, I tend to go for a serrated blade - shun or Tojiro or Mac bread knife or Guede. But even here I take my serrated bread knife to 8k. It's that it's serrated, not really the level of finish. Some even use hacksaws for this I don't care for the pointy serrated type blades but prefer the 'wavy' serrations.

Now if you drag your edge through a felt block or the end of a 2x4 or otherwise break the burr off at most any grit you get a fractured edge. This isn't a sharp edge but more closely resembles a serrated edge with it's jagged fracture line. It also - like a serrated blade will pass the 3 finger test.

If something is 'crusty' - burnt roast, etc a serrated blade works well. For the skin of a tomato, people used to dull blades will say you need a serrated blade. With a sharp blade you can easily slice through a tomato. With a very sharp knife you can push cut a tomato

I have cut crusty bread with my Nubatama blades at 24k. It made for a very clean slice, including going through the crust.

On steak or meat I prefer the nicer surface I get on each slice from a more refined edge.

I also think that limiting to a midgrit synthetic edge can be overcome with a finer grit natural where you still have some tooth even with a higher level of refinement.

In the end this topic de-evolves into a matter of personal taste One of the advantages of sharpening your own knives is that you aim to meet your own personal expectations.

---
Ken

[J david]

The more I sharpen, the more i realize there are no rules. I went from a Sharpton glass 500 to an Aoto that runs ~5k with no issues at all just a little while ago. I even set a bevel on a knife I finished thinning with a Kitayama 8k. I wouldn't recommend it for everyone but the knife was VERY thin and the Kit is really fast for its grit. I'm just saying that it is doable.

I have a Wat suji that came with an 8k edge and that is where i keep it. Works great and I recently ran it through 47lbs of brisket with a ton of bark.

I agree that a refined edge, say 10k+, will cut a ripe tomato any way you want, push, pull, or even chop. I tested some R2 at 8k chopping over ripe cherry tomatoes. The edge had no perceivable bite but disected several with ultra thin chops banging the board hard.

With my gyutos, I can't leave well enough alone and sharpen one almost every day weather it needs it or not. I have several natural finishers and I have to see what each of them do to every knife I have. As a result, my gyutos are probably more refined than most but I've not run into any problems.

The best advice I can give to any free hand sharpener is to do it all the time. If I go a week without sharpening, it takes a bit before I'm back to proficient. Other than that, do what you want and try things that go against conventional wisdom. You may have some failures, but I promise you will learn some things along the way.