Thinning a Takeda - round two

[ken123]

I guess I'm for maximizing a knife for the user. Many of us sharpen a knife the day they get it. Perhaps you could argue that this goes against the intent of the knifemaker. The Nubatama knives are polished by a sword polisher. I strongly recommend that the new owner use the existing edge as it is 'special' before you put your own edge on it as it takes a bit of time to fully appreciate the edge. But with most knives the original edge is a mark of the knifemaker's work.

But all knives get dull. And so you sharpen them - a modification of the original knife. In time you may significantly alter the knife during it's lifetime of use. Original edges are the maker's attempt to meet the general user's need as the maker envisions it, fully expecting it to evolve under the guidance of the sharpener/owner.

Here is a picture showing two knives - one with many years of use and one relatively new knife. They both started out as near identical knives. Knives evolve over time to meet the needs of the user,often including thinning operations as well. It is a dynamic interactive process, a lifecycle of use. This picture was taken by me in Kyoto of a Kaiseki chef with remarkable knife skills.

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Ken

[ken123]

I guess another three points to consider:

The owner had already had the knife thinned by me and it didn't meet his needs. So it needed to be thinner to meet his requirements.

The owner had invested in a custom handle. So selling this knife for another knife would in all likelihood result in a second unhappy purchase.

More food for thought. I'm really enjoying the thoughts presented here!

This knife was the stainless cladding. This is a very smooth cladding - very different from the original ku design cladding - much smoother. So Takeda has seen fit to change his original design to this new type of ku finish. Is this evolution or disregarding the 'intent' of the original design? I come down on the side of things evolving, both in the hands of the maker and the user/sharpener.

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Ken

[SanDiego]

Good Japanese knives often need to be “opened”, they also often need to be thinned and sharpened.

For me, it's not a static art form - it's an art of performance.

[Timoteo]

I thought it might be helpful for the owner of the Takeda that was thinned to post. In short I just wanted to be able to enjoy my knife, and I wasn't, prior to the second round of thinning.

I have several other Japanese chef's knifes and they all have different character. I also have a Takeda 210 gyuoto which performed quite well from the get go, was thinned just a little and now really performs well, and is much more fun to use on my board. The bigger Takeda, the one pictured here I did not like when I got it. So it sat. And sat. Then I began to resent it. I would use it to try and warm up to it somehow, liking it less each time. It would wedge and generally require massive effort to use. I sent it off to be sharpened professionally -- it came back and went through paper effortlessly but was still no fun to use for...........food.

So I sent it in to get some thinning, and hope returned that I may be able to enjoy the tool. Alas, it was not much better. So it sat. I used my other knives and wondered what to do. I discussed it with Ken and he wanted me to send it back to him for more thinning and work on his end. This time something happened. The best way to describe it is the knife was allowed to come out. Now, I must add, that it was not in anyway radically changed to something it never was, rather it was allowed to finally be free to feel, and to perform. I also have a Konosuke HD and while the Takeda is now thin it does not feel like the Konosuke. Not at all. It was not changed into something it never was. I was worried that I might lose confidence (never had confidence in it to begin with) in the big Takeda as it would maybe get too thin. This is not the case at all. I feel like as long as I make square contact with my board the knife and I get along quite well. Our relationship is finally, thanks to the thinning work process, allowed to begin.

Some analogies I have thought of are cars, or bicycles, depending on your background and experience. In bicycle terms we did not take a Mountain bike and put Tour de France road racing wheels on it, confusing the purpose and feel or radicalizing it any way. We did the opposite. We put the proper wheels and tires on it that allowed the frame to come alive, and to feel lively and agile and responsive, and I guess it's worth saying it again -- to feel alive. Folks sometimes in the knife world and bike world talk about getting a lemon, or a dud. I was wondering if that's what happened initially with my Takeda. As the 210 was a great knife and many rave about their love of them I wondered what went so wrong with the big 250 I had as it was basically lifeless? Turns out, thanks to the thinning process, it's not a lemon at all, but rather quite a nice knife. Just needed the big heavy tires taken off and the right ones put on to match the frame and in all likelihood the feel the blacksmith intended.

I now enjoy a knife I didn't. Advantage home cook.

[salemj]

^^^Nice feedback! Thanks for taking the time to write this. And welcome to the forum!

[Kit Craft]

Agreed, thanks for chiming in. To me, all that matters is that you enjoy your knife.

I would like to comment on something though. I have a few knives from a few lines that come in 180, 210 and 240. Well, they come in 270 too but I own no such beast. I always find that 180 and 210 knives from the same line perform much more similarly than either when compared to a 240. A lot of times tapper and profile can differ dramatically. While the grind itself is often the same or as similar as can be expected the shorter knives are also typically more narrow and start out just as thick as the wider 240 and for me this means a difference in performance from the word go. However, at the same time the 210 or 180 often times seem to have a thinner tip, for whatever reason. I suppose this has to do with the height while grinding but I haven't a clue beyond a wild guess.

Being heavy into 180s this makes finding a review, that is relevant to me, difficult. Steve G does some videos that help, though. Often times a 180, for example, can be a laser and the 210 not so much and the 240 surely not. Just an observation from my limited experience.

[pd7077]

Nice to hear the owner chime in, and happy to hear that the knife is now performing the way you want it to. I totally understand where you're coming from as I'm just about finished thinning my Takeda. It's been a work in progress for me over the past few months, and she's very close to where I want her to be. I gradually knocked down the shoulders of the "arrowhead" grind, but it did result in an uneven loss of the KU finish so that's the last bit that I have to tackle.

[milkbaby]

I thought it might be helpful for the owner of the Takeda that was thinned to post. In short I just wanted to be able to enjoy my knife, and I wasn't, prior to the second round of thinning.
[....]
I now enjoy a knife I didn't. Advantage home cook.

Welcome and thanks for sharing your thoughts. Glad you are enjoying the knife now.

To be honest, I still have some reservations about the extent of the work done; however, since I'm not the owner and you are, how I feel is immaterial. It's obvious that Ken is very talented and does great work. Enjoy your knife!

[Timoteo]

What a great forum. Knowledgeable and supportive. The gains. Thanks everyone.

[pjwoolw]

That knife has become legendary. Enjoy it to its fullest!

[dothedr3w]

After getting sick and tired of serious wedging in potatoes, I thinned my Takeda today. I didn't do it to the degree Ken did, only brought it back another millimeter or two, but excited to see how it fares! Relatively painless process on the shapton glass 320.

[branwell]

As a knife maker, I can tell you that everything, literally everything effects the performance of the knives I make and no combination of any steel, shape, weight, balance, heat treat, grind, finish etc is ideal for all cutting tasks. Its for this reason many chefs have a large selection of knives to choose from. Are you cutting tomatoes, carrots, potatoes? Fish, pork, beef? Whats the fat content? to name but a few of the variables. And that's not taking into account the user, their style, their body type, the shape and weight of their hands, their cutting environment or their maintenance regime. There is just no one perfect set of compromises.

The bottom line is this guys. If you have a knife and you are not blown away by its performance, no matter who made it, you are short changing yourself if you don't sell it or modify it. No matter how high a pedestal you put your favorite maker on, they are always evolving and changing, learning and growing, and as they do, their work and the set of compromises they choose to use today will not be the same as what they use tomorrow. No reason you shouldn't get in on the act as well

[XexoX]

...The bottom line is this guys. If you have a knife and you are not blown away by its performance, no matter who made it, you are short changing yourself if you don't sell it or modify it. No matter how high a pedestal you put your favorite maker on, they are always evolving and changing, learning and growing, and as they do, their work and the set of compromises they choose to use today will not be the same as what they use tomorrow. No reason you shouldn't get in on the act as well

Reminds me of a passage from my favorite author's, Sir Terry Pratchett, book The Fifth Elephant.

"This will become, in time, the ax of someone's grandfather," said the king, lifting it out. "And no doubt over the years it will need a new handle or a new blade and over the centuries the shape will change in line with fashion, but it will always be, in every detail and respect, the ax I give you today. And because it'll change with the times, it'll always be sharp. There's a grain of Truth in that, see...."