Full circle

[Kit Craft]

Out of curiosity I had not touched my natural stones for about a month. I did this in favor of working purely with synthetics in order to get back to the basics. Hit the books, so to speak and improve my technique etc. While taking this little break I focused solely on 4 stones and did not test any others so that I could have some sort of consistency.

Today I migrated back to naturals, what a freaking difference. When you do not use them in awhile, they seem slow but they seem precise, ever so precise. And hard, even my soft Takashima (the softest own) seemed so much harder than my Kitayama, for example. Not as dense and it has such a silky smooth feel, chalk like, with creamy feedback. The edge left is more aggressive than the Kitayama, though. Subtle tooth when testing but in practice it feels great on tomatoes and peppers.

Now, it took me maybe 30-40 minutes to run through a whole set. Omura, Natsuya, Igarashi, Aizu and Takashima. Only about 10-15 or so to run through the contrasting synthetic progression of pink brick, sp1k, sp2k and kitayama. The efficiency is there with the synthetics, by far easier to use and see results with but I chose these stones because to me they are the best compromise between feel, cosmetics and function. I chose the naturals because they are the most efficient that I have.

Conclusion? Is the edge better on the naturals? Is it worth spending 3-4x the amount of time getting there? First, if it is worth it is relative to your outlook. For me, yes because the process is enjoyable. Is the edge left better, no. I would say it is different but not better or worse. Now cosmetics are a different thing and neither of these setups are perfect for kasumi but both will leave a fair working example. Regardless I didn't do such cosmetics today as that was not the point.

Sorry for the rambling, just making an observation. I think I am ready to start playing with other stones from around the world such as the Coti etc. Back to my search, so to speak.

Any suggestions on a stone to start with? Coti's seem to be popular on knives these days even though it seems they are more traditionally used for razors. I know there are loads of other stones from around the world that fall into a similar category. Most seem relatively cheap compared to J-nats as well.

[J david]

I should follow your lead on going back to the basics. I was thinking today that I am so comfortable in my technique that I don't think about it anymore when I sharpen.

As far as stones go, the only non jnat I've owned was the Balkan Grey. It is a nice and very useful stone starting around 2k. It is a large stone, bit thin. It is also super cheap so it is an easy one to try.

As far as the coti goes, I've read you can order direct from the mine and specify hardness, speed, size, etc.

[Kit Craft]

I should follow your lead on going back to the basics. I was thinking today that I am so comfortable in my technique that I don't think about it anymore when I sharpen.

As far as stones go, the only non jnat I've owned was the Balkan Grey. It is a nice and very useful stone starting around 2k. It is a large stone, bit thin. It is also super cheap so it is an easy one to try.

As far as the coti goes, I've read you can order direct from the mine and specify hardness, speed, size, etc.

I have seen the Balkan Grey but it was OOS last I looked. There is a shaving site that has loads of stones. As for the Coti, I know the direct site but its webstore is not very helpful nor is the tutorial section. I see loads of choices but no explinations. Example: Standard, selected and selected plus. Obviously these are grades from low to high but how they are graded, I have no idea and the price difference between the highest and lowest grade is only a few euros.

I have an old Ark but I want to pick up a full set too, it has been years and years. Those are easy to find and cheap enough both new and vintage. No speaking for quality, though.

I see other stones of interest like the Eastern red, said to be around 1k but quick and is only like $30. I think that will be at the top of my list, we all know I like mid grit hones.

Also looking at some diamond plates that are a little over $100 for a set of 4 for 300-2200 grit. I mean, they are basically around $40 if you buy them one at a time. That matches up with my CKTG 140 grit plate at $30 and I must say, while it is not an atoma, it is a damn fine plate from almost 1/3 of the price. So these might be okay too.

The thing is, I have switched hobbies a lot in my life and I am only 30...Seriously, I have had dozens of hobbies because I have a short attention span but I really like this one and am trying to keep the lifeblood going.

Thanks for the heads up. I will keep my eyes peeled.

[J david]

I think emails to coti direct site would be informative and productive, from what I've gathered.

A recent post from another forum:
" Just remember there is a lot of variation with coticules. You have soft ones that are slow or fast, hard ones that are slow or fast and everything in between. You have to tell the owner of Ardennes Coticule what kind of stone you want and what you want to sharpen with it."

[Kit Craft]

I think emails to coti direct site would be informative and productive, from what I've gathered.

A recent post from another forum:
" Just remember there is a lot of variation with coticules. You have soft ones that are slow or fast, hard ones that are slow or fast and everything in between. You have to tell the owner of Ardennes Coticule what kind of stone you want and what you want to sharpen with it."

Thank you, that is good to know. I think an email would be a good idea as well.

[Chefcallari]

I should follow your lead on going back to the basics. I was thinking today that I am so comfortable in my technique that I don't think about it anymore when I sharpen.

As far as stones go, the only non jnat I've owned was the Balkan Grey. It is a nice and very useful stone starting around 2k. It is a large stone, bit thin. It is also super cheap so it is an easy one to try.

As far as the coti goes, I've read you can order direct from the mine and specify hardness, speed, size, etc.

Mr j david was kind enough to give me that Balkan grey in a trade, and while its my first natural stone, ...so i have nothing to compare it to... Its a pretty Awsome stone. I had mentioned it to you kit before. I think you would really like it because i know you like your edges around 2k.
With its own mud it leaves an Awsome 2k edge that i use on all my carbon fabrication knives , suji, deba and honesuki. They are super sharp, very crisp edges with really good refinement but also alot of tooth.
Now if you use it with just water no mud it gives a solid 5k polish and edge thats got good tooth, like a less toothy Rika 5k. I use that edge on my Kohetsu blue #2 and its flies man.

Thanks again j david.

[Kit Craft]

I should follow your lead on going back to the basics. I was thinking today that I am so comfortable in my technique that I don't think about it anymore when I sharpen.

As far as stones go, the only non jnat I've owned was the Balkan Grey. It is a nice and very useful stone starting around 2k. It is a large stone, bit thin. It is also super cheap so it is an easy one to try.

As far as the coti goes, I've read you can order direct from the mine and specify hardness, speed, size, etc.

Mr j david was kind enough to give me that Balkan grey in a trade, and while its my first natural stone, ...so i have nothing to compare it to... Its a pretty Awsome stone. I had mentioned it to you kit before. I think you would really like it because i know you like your edges around 2k.
With its own mud it leaves an Awsome 2k edge that i use on all my carbon fabrication knives , suji, deba and honesuki. They are super sharp, very crisp edges with really good refinement but also alot of tooth.
Now if you use it with just water no mud it gives a solid 5k polish and edge thats got good tooth, like a less toothy Rika 5k. I use that edge on my Kohetsu blue #2 and its flies man.

Thanks again j david.

The whole slurry vs water thing interests me. I mean, with J-nats I find that slurry, while it can aid in cutting speed, does not have a huge effect on the edge itself. I mean, I am being basic here. Sure mud plays a role as does its thickness and thinness but the difference between 2k and 5k is huge. It seems that these other stones from around the world work quite a bit differently. I think that is why the eastern red I am looking at interests me. It says about 1k with slurry and 3k with water. That could be a good stone for me. I will keep an eye out for the Balkan in the future too.

[Kit Craft]

I really should have done this long ago. Take time to set aside the naturals and work more on my technique. I was comfortable with what I knew and I got complacent. Going back to the basics, slowing down and using synthetics only has improved the edges that I am getting from my naturals significantly. I just broke out the Hideriyama and Oouchi for the first time in quite some time and I think I understand them even more now. Nothing about them changed of course but how I look at them did. I stand by my feelings on these stones but I can see many how to use them in a different situation now.

Oouchi, this is a good all around stone but I don't need to get into that as I have already reviewed the stone. I think this stone does not follow a high grit synthetic well. I just don't think it is fine enough to follow something like a Snow white or Kitayama. It will follow the Rika 5k really, really well but the Arashiyama is pushing it as they are about equal. However, this stone shines after a shapton pro 2k. I mean, it leaves as much bite in the edge as it possibly can while still refining it to the max. A very good compromise!

Hideriyama, this one still leaves a "weird" saw like edge. I am not the only one to make this observation but I think this stone leaves a jagged feeling edge. It has no more bite than the Oouchi but it feels odd. I don't know how to explain it other than to say that the micro serrations are less clean feeling. Regardless, it is still a good edge for food but maybe not so much for shaving. I am a knife and tool guy anyway. However, I find this one is finer than the Oouchi but only slightly. It still works well in place of a 6-8k rather than after it. However jumping directly from a 1k might be pushing it as the stone might be fast on cladding but is average at best on hard core steel and particularly anything with more alloy than white. I like this one a little less than the Oouchi but that is the same thing I said in my review. Again, not a lot has changed other than my being able to get the edges a little better than they were before.

Anyway, the thing about these stones is that they do not follow a coarser Naka-to well. Something like an amakusa or even binsui or igarashi is just too coarse to use before these two stones, imo. They are not fast enough to take out the scratches from the previous stone. So, if I wanted to go with a full natural progress, and you know I tried, I think that Monzen-to, Tajima or Aizu would be a good choice to put between them. Or the correct aoto but those tend to vary a bit more. Aono would be a good choice but it is a waste to erase an Aono edge with a higher grit stone! Save that stone as a finisher for other knives.

Anyway, I am having fun rediscovering my sharpening technique and how to apply that in the most useful way, to me.

Now, this may seem boring but I find it exciting.