Dear Mark or whom it may concern,
I’ve been using and sharpening a Masakage Yuki 210 for about 4 years now. I hand sharpen on shapton glass 1k, 4k, 8k and then strop on newspaper. I try very hard to maintain 50/50, 15ish degree bevels. The edge when finished is extremely sharp, smooth to the touch and will immediately bite into slick, thin magazine paper loosely folded in half lengthwise (as if filleting the paper). or bite and pop off arm hair. This edge however does not seem to last as long as the original factory edge put on by Masakage nor does it feel as “toothy”. My question is, in short. Why? different stones, technique, or different bevel profile on one side versus the other? Any input would be greatly appreciated. Still an absolute pleasure to use this knife in the kitchen!!!!! Thanks
Sincerely and with great interest,
Clint
Not as sharp as the factory edge
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Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
Hi Clint,
2 quick suggestions. Ditch the 8K. A polished edge is nice for shaving and cutting paper but less good for cutting food where a little toothiness helps.
Second, I don't know if you've been thinning the edge as you've been using it but it may need to be thinned.
2 quick suggestions. Ditch the 8K. A polished edge is nice for shaving and cutting paper but less good for cutting food where a little toothiness helps.
Second, I don't know if you've been thinning the edge as you've been using it but it may need to be thinned.
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Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
I can't agree more about ditching the 8k. My 8k Snow White gave me a beautiful sharp shiny edge but since I now stop at my Rika 5K ,my edge is nice and toothy and is a much better cutter.I still use my Snow White but only for stropping now.I also have the Yuki 210mm and the 240mm that I bought from CKTG.I like them so much,I made a sort of knife holder frame for them and they hang on the kitchen wall for all to see,until I use them,of course.Just have to flaunt those babies.
Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
All the reasons you mentioned could be contributing. It is definitely something you can work on.
My first thought is that, since you haven't used a true coarse stone on the knife yet, you may be working with a fatigued edge. As a knife is used the edge is compressed and bent slightly back and forth, weakening it. A coarse sharpening on occasion lets you reach fresh steel that has never seen the stresses of use. Many of us sharpen our knives out of the box specifically to make sure we are working with fresh steel. If you like the Glass stones the Glass 500 is popular. If you might like to try something a little less precise there are many other options.
As for stone omission, do try skipping the 8k, but also try skipping the 4k. Making long jumps, from a 1k to a 6k or 8k, can leave you with a mostly polished edge that still has a little of the 1k bite; this is particularly effective on steels with low abrasion resistance like the shirogami used in your Yuki.
My first thought is that, since you haven't used a true coarse stone on the knife yet, you may be working with a fatigued edge. As a knife is used the edge is compressed and bent slightly back and forth, weakening it. A coarse sharpening on occasion lets you reach fresh steel that has never seen the stresses of use. Many of us sharpen our knives out of the box specifically to make sure we are working with fresh steel. If you like the Glass stones the Glass 500 is popular. If you might like to try something a little less precise there are many other options.
As for stone omission, do try skipping the 8k, but also try skipping the 4k. Making long jumps, from a 1k to a 6k or 8k, can leave you with a mostly polished edge that still has a little of the 1k bite; this is particularly effective on steels with low abrasion resistance like the shirogami used in your Yuki.
Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
I've had a hard time with edge retention on my Yuki petty. I've tried a variety of sharpening routines, such as 1k->5k->8k->1 micron diamond paste strop->leather strop, to just 1k, to 1k plus strop, to 1k->5k, and so on and so forth. I can't get the knife to retain much of an edge after the initial awesomeness (every combination leads to awesomeness). And the knife doesn't get used that heavily. In comparison, my Yahiko 240mm gyuto (also white 2) sees a lot more use but rarely needs much more than a touch up on the strops or a little time on the 8k.
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Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
How are you deburring the edge? Could it be the wire that is giving you performance and failing quickly?
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Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
This is what I would try to increase edge retention.
1. As Lepus the learned one suggests, start with a coarse stone, I think this is the root of the problem. Form a burr and then remove it usuing the coarse stone. Get that knife as sharp as possible on the first stone. When you think your done, try again with feather light pressure. Now look carefully at the edge under a good light, you’re looking for any reflections and if you see any, take note of that area and go back at it on the coarse stone with medium to light pressure. ( Medium where you noticed the reflections and light everywhere else). You’re not finished until the Edge is clean, no reflections.
Now you can move up in grit using light pressure all the rest of the way. It’s okay to finish that knife at 8k if you’ve done the work on the coarse stone.
You could try stopping at 1k and just see how it goes, use the knife and see how long the Edge lasts. Then you can move to 4K.
As Mark recommends, thin if necessary. The bottom line is to do your absolute best to make sure that Edge is as clean as possible on the first stone you use. If the edge doesn’t startle you at 400 or 500 grit, you’re not ready to move to the next stone. Take your time, it’s fun
(I remember a time when I would rush to get to my 8k or 10k stone thinking they would make my mediocre edges remarkable, the 400 grit was just something I had to use and I couldn’t wait to move up in grit. That never happened because I was not doing the work properly on my coarse stones. It wasn’t until I realized my mistake that I produced sharp knives. When I teach sharpening, students don’t even get to look at a 1k stone until the knife is sharper than they’ve ever seen using a 320, 400 or 500 grit stone)
1. As Lepus the learned one suggests, start with a coarse stone, I think this is the root of the problem. Form a burr and then remove it usuing the coarse stone. Get that knife as sharp as possible on the first stone. When you think your done, try again with feather light pressure. Now look carefully at the edge under a good light, you’re looking for any reflections and if you see any, take note of that area and go back at it on the coarse stone with medium to light pressure. ( Medium where you noticed the reflections and light everywhere else). You’re not finished until the Edge is clean, no reflections.
Now you can move up in grit using light pressure all the rest of the way. It’s okay to finish that knife at 8k if you’ve done the work on the coarse stone.
You could try stopping at 1k and just see how it goes, use the knife and see how long the Edge lasts. Then you can move to 4K.
As Mark recommends, thin if necessary. The bottom line is to do your absolute best to make sure that Edge is as clean as possible on the first stone you use. If the edge doesn’t startle you at 400 or 500 grit, you’re not ready to move to the next stone. Take your time, it’s fun
(I remember a time when I would rush to get to my 8k or 10k stone thinking they would make my mediocre edges remarkable, the 400 grit was just something I had to use and I couldn’t wait to move up in grit. That never happened because I was not doing the work properly on my coarse stones. It wasn’t until I realized my mistake that I produced sharp knives. When I teach sharpening, students don’t even get to look at a 1k stone until the knife is sharper than they’ve ever seen using a 320, 400 or 500 grit stone)
Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
Not sure if this was for the OP or for me. I use edge trailing strokes at the end of each stone. Once off my 1k I use pretty light pressure to try to keep burrs from forming. I strop on leather in between stones.
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Re: Not as sharp as the factory edge
This is an excellent suggestions. Adding a low grit stone will speed your work and provide the edge with some well formed teeth. It also grinds away all the old edge faster and better so you’re dealing with fresh steel.Lepus wrote: ↑Fri Dec 08, 2017 5:56 pm All the reasons you mentioned could be contributing. It is definitely something you can work on.
My first thought is that, since you haven't used a true coarse stone on the knife yet, you may be working with a fatigued edge. As a knife is used the edge is compressed and bent slightly back and forth, weakening it. A coarse sharpening on occasion lets you reach fresh steel that has never seen the stresses of use. Many of us sharpen our knives out of the box specifically to make sure we are working with fresh steel. If you like the Glass stones the Glass 500 is popular. If you might like to try something a little less precise there are many other options.
As for stone omission, do try skipping the 8k, but also try skipping the 4k. Making long jumps, from a 1k to a 6k or 8k, can leave you with a mostly polished edge that still has a little of the 1k bite; this is particularly effective on steels with low abrasion resistance like the shirogami used in your Yuki.
It took me a while to get hip to using low grit stones and I found a marked improvement in my edges after I started using one. I love using my shapton pro 320 at work as my foundation stone. https://www.chefknivestogo.com/shaptonpro320x.html