How do you rate your own sharpening skills?

[ken123]

A bit off topic, but do we really want to be rated at all ? Do we want to usher in a certification process for sharpening ? Higher rates,Critiques from new users lowering your score after doing a difficult knife ? I REALLY don't want to be taking certification exams, continuing education conferences, etc.

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Ken

[salemj]

One of the most gratifying things about hobbies is the ability to pursue excellence without boundaries.

Sure, it is easy to talk about hobbies as being the opposite of the above – I even did this in this thread – but the fact remains that one of the wonderful things about hobbies is that, unlike work, we do them on our own time, at our own pace, to our own ends. And for many people this means that they pursue perfection (or the best they can achieve) at their own rate and pace, without the deadlines, functionality, and necessary contingencies of a real job. One need only consider how many mirror-finished bevels of EDCs are all over the web...

Now, I recognize that many of us on the forum sharpen out of necessity, and many others (like me) sharpen mostly for functionality. But my guess is that many more pursue sharpening and (especially) the buying knives as a hobby, as far as they can afford. And, oddly enough, this make relative evaluation all the more important. In these examples, receiving a passing grade is hardly a concern at all. Instead, it is an obsession over what is possible with more time and energy. One desires to know how one compares, and what the upper limit looks and feels like.

Maybe this sounds crazy, but ask yourself: once you discovered how great a $100 knife could be, didn't you wonder about a $200 one? And then carbon versus stainless, and monosteel versus clad? And then...oh my!...a "really expensive" knife, say $400 or above? And for some, even hard-to-get or strictly hand-made or honyaki knives...and then the masters of single-bevels, even though most of us don't even have a use for single-bevels...

We all have our limits, and we all have our temptations. Our limits are all over the place...but sometimes I feel like our temptations are actually pretty closely aligned.

And it is this reasoning that leads back to the scale, the grades, and the OP: what are "my" limits, versus the temptation to exceed those limits to achieve what the best of the best can achieve.

[Lepus]

Regarding whether we should want to be graded, there is a lot to be said about sharpening as a personal journey, but what we've been discussing can have huge benefits to helping people recognize where they are, particularly newer sharpeners, and what they can do to get better. This started because someone recognized, starkly, that he wasn't where he thought he was with regard to sharpening. That was made easier and maybe even possible by something external. And for every person who does go through those growing pains of asking questions and getting feedback, dozens of people don't ask. They plunk away unaware of what they don't know.

Having heaped a lot of praise on master Japanese sharpeners in this thread, I think it's worth recognizing that part of what makes them respectable are the formal apprenticeships and certifications they go through which submit them to a lot of outside assessment. No one graduates to head his master's shop or is awarded master status because he feels that he's ready. Bringing other people, perspectives, and structure into the equation can have a huge positive impact.

[Lepus]

Regarding the sample used for scaling, I think it's simple enough to limit it to those who sharpen because it is required to maintain higher end kitchen knives, as part of work, or because they enjoy the hobby. Anyone who cares enough to read anything that comes out of this thread would almost certainly be included in that. If we include anyone with a Sharpmaker who hasn't breached modern sharpening technique we're weighing the average down.

[Kit Craft]

...and then the masters of single-bevels, even though most of us don't even have a use for single-bevels...

You said a lot of good stuff that needs no reiteration so I will look at this. There is one glaring reason to own a single bevel in regards to this conversation and that is to learn to properly sharpen and refinish a single bevel!

That aside, for me it is time to buy a good Usuba (probably Watanabe) because I love carrots, cumbers and radish. I have been practicing my Katsuramuki with a gyuto, which is cumbersome, but I can do it so it is time to move on. We eat a metric ton of salad.

Back to my coffee...

[Bensbites]

A bit off topic, but do we really want to be rated at all ? Do we want to usher in a certification process for sharpening ? Higher rates,Critiques from new users lowering your score after doing a difficult knife ? I REALLY don't want to be taking certification exams, continuing education conferences, etc.

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Ken

Ken, I get what you are saying. Maybe we don’t need to rate ourself a, but I find it much easier to improve if I can provide myself a benchmark of my own skills vs what is possible.

[Kit Craft]

Ken, I get what you are saying. Maybe we don’t need to rate ourself a, but I find it much easier to improve if I can provide myself a benchmark of my own skills vs what is possible.

Easily done. Have a few different people (I like to go with well known pro sharpeners) sharpen a knife for you and aim for that or better. Example, I have had Jon B. at JKI sharpen a few knives for me and they are wicked sharp and consistent but after the first two times I asked for him to put a coarser edge on the blade because I like more bite. My wish was granted and the edge blew me away. There was a load of bite but it was so very subtle. Not what I considered bite at the time and it totally changed how I viewed a "toothy" edge.

In fact, that reminds me of one my of my first conversations here. It was with Jason B. and he had mentioned making a polished-toothy edge and it took me a very long time to understand just what he meant. Or how, I don't recall who, always spoke of "knocking the teeth off of a 1k edge". None of this is meaningful in you finding the edge or skill that you want beyond telling you to experiment and gauge yourself. And that is the thing and in a way where I agree with ken. I think rating myself might be more useful to me, as a whole, than having someone else rate my edges. That is not to say that both are not useful though.

Nothing wrong with wanting to push your skills to the limit, I think we all do that.

[loco_food_guy]

I used to think I was good at sharpening. I was able to get my German Knives very sharp. Then I began going down this nebulous rabbit hole with Japanese knives and I have realized how little I know. But the truth is that to me, a Chef, it doesn't really matter most of the time, however there is still enormous room for improvement. If i were to attempt to make a living sharpening knives, the story would change. I would have sooooo much more to learn. I am not saying that I don't have a lot to learn regardless because I do. Here is what I know and don't know. Mostly don't.

1) I can get my knives really sharp to the point that I am aware of how sharp they are when I am using them and even with my knife skills which are at a very high level, on occasion i will still slice through a fingernail. So i make sure I don't allow myself to become distracted/lazy when cutting or wiping my blade.
2) I would still like to get my knives sharper and don't have an immediate answer as to how or even if I can, I would imagine I could with more knowledge. Do i spend more time on my rough stones. Should I spend more time with edge trailing strokes, Should I not sharpen with edge leading strokes at all etc, etc. I continue to try different things but the fact that i don't have answers to these things show me how little I know.
3) Stone progression, I have a stone setup that I am very happy with and my progression for most of knives is something like this. If they are really dull I start with my pink brick and raise a burr. Remove the burr with continued edge trailing strokes until i feel the edge is really sharp. I move on to my SG 500 with edge trailing strokes and continue refining the edge in this manner with the following stones. SG 2000, Nat Homurua, Aono Aoto, Yaginoshima. I do this with most of my knives but I usually stop at the Aono unless I am sharpening my Sukenari Yanagiba. I strop on paper sandwich bags or grocery store bags. I dont know if this is the best progression or stones for all of my knives or if there are better stones or combos for them.
4) I don't know how to deal with specific steels,
5) I don't know how to look at a blade and know exactly what needs to be done although I am getting better but only with my knives. So that leaves a lot of situations I wouldn't have any Idea how to deal with.

So I am not sure what grade I would get based on this information or even if the grading system outlined applies. I guess if I were going to knife sharpening university I would be an F grade sharpener but upon closer inspection It appears I may actually be an A +++ honor roll sharpener in kindergarten.

[ken123]

So tonight I had a brief 'conversation' with a knife - one of Mark Richmond's knives in k390.

I had just finished the edge on a new 2k stone I'm 'testing' It push cut quite nicely BUT there were some obvious chips in the edge. I could easily hear them. I wanted to get them out. I spent more time on the 2k. Going too slow - still could hear the chips.

I recently lacquered a 1k speckled ume. I thought this would be good. The surface was still rough (64 grit) but that would be perfect. More 'tooth'. Worked it for a while - plenty of metal swarf but nothing exceptional but no loss of edge sharpness. So I changed the angle by a couple of degrees to be sure to get the edge of the edge. BAM! No chips, excellent sharpness. I'll take it to an 8k ume (new untried stone) with an intermediate 3k stone and see how that works out. I found a solution.

How would you rate this session? Was I an expert? Was I lucky? How will getting 'rated' on this session give a new customer a feeling of comfort or anxiety? Perhaps a rating system for newbies first might be a possible solution for the bean counters?

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Ken

[salemj]

^^^Well, one way of rating it is pretty obvious: any newbie who reads this will call you the "stone whisperer" and may begin turning off all electronics and fans in order to "listen" to microchips when sharpening!

My point is that you go into a remarkable level of detail here in such a casual way that - I'm quite confident - anyone around my grade (C-?) would immediately read and say "well, that's obviously not like me or the way I sharpen...I wonder what the intermediary steps are between what I do and what he's doing...."

This is in contrast to when I read something by a forum sharpener who are a bit closer to me, in which even detailed discussions leave me saying "maybe I'll try that technique next time" rather than "what are the intermediary steps I need to develop IN ORDER TO try that at some point in the future..."

That, to me, is a difference worth articulating as a categorical one, especially in regards to the OP. In this case, the category could be C versus A, or it could be novice versus professional, or amateur versus professional, or "functional" versus "apex of the trade," if you'll pardon the pun!

[ken123]

Joe, thanks for the kind comments. I guess stone whisperer is a good title vs mud salesman Also my apologies for my stream of consciousness description.

But I guess what I'm asking is how would my insight in solving this relatively trivial problem give me or someone else a rating that would translate into something meaningful to a newbie sharpener? If a new sharpener 'solved' the problem in another way, would that make him a lesser or greater sharpener ?

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Ken

[salemj]

But I guess what I'm asking is how would my insight in solving this relatively trivial problem give me or someone else a rating that would translate into something meaningful to a newbie sharpener? If a new sharpener 'solved' the problem in another way, would that make him a lesser or greater sharpener ?

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Ken

Yes. Haha. That's my own short answer. I think that, in the spirit of many posts above, the idea of a grade is meant in the ideal sense, and not in the sense that we all know bad tests and bad grading metrics do, in fact, exist. It is true one can "happen" to arrive at a good answer or end result, but a good test is design to distinguish between this and an actual understanding of the question. I work very hard, for example, to produce tests on which there are some "degrees" of correctness rather than just absolute correctness (like multiple choice). It is nice to have a kind of question, for example, that allows a student to demonstrate mastery of the basics of a question, mastery beyond the basics, and mastery of well beyond the basics. Notice I said "mastery" in each case: a C is not about producing a mediocre result necessarily...

I'm not a C- sharpener because I produce mediocre edges on my own knives, and I think that is an important point. My edges are probably above average in my estimation not just across the public, but even across a forum like this. But I frequently do not "perfect" my edges in the time I allow myself to sharpen...and I certainly lack the ability to predictably produce a great edge on a knife I've never used, and on stones I've never used, without lots of stopping and testing, etc., etc. So as a sharpener more generally, I am definitely at or below average, even if, in terms of taking care of my own stuff with my own equipment, I probably do a better job than most other people on the forum stepping in to my kitchen for the first time. Above, we've discussed this discrepancy in lots of different ways. The fact is, I often give students a C who show "mastery" of a certain amount of material. They just show "mastery" of a lesser amount of material than someone who gets a B or an A. Getting a "C" doesn't mean you're stupid or incompetent or a poor student. It just means you've mastered the average amount of ability of a subject rather than an above average or exceptional amount. In sharpening, getting a C doesn't mean you produce average edges, necessarily. It can also mean you produce fantastic edges, but only on about 50-75% of the knives you work on, and with less control and predictability than you'd like.

Whether we want to call that acquired knowledge, the use of intuition, or whatever, I don't really care. But I would still claim that it separates someone like me from a "professional." I would not give my knives to a stranger with my skill level to sharpen, but I would give them to many forum members that I read because I know they can arrive at an edge as good as my own or better quickly, effectively, and with whatever equipment they have on hand. The reason is not that I think someone of my skill level would damage the knives, but rather than I knew it took me a lot of time and energy to learn how to put a decent edge on my particular knives, and I see no reason to waste the steel and scratches all over again on someone like me, even if they ultimately arrive at a great edge...there are those who can do it faster, better, and more predictably, and they deserve a higher grade.

[Kit Craft]

Good post, as always, Joe. But I don't know that we have set a definition of what we consider sharpening for the purposes of this discussion. Too many variables, still. If we are talking the sharpening of edge bevels only, I think many people would rank a lot closer to an A than if we were to include full grind thinning, edge profiling and refinishing. I expect that a pro CAN do all of these things. I also expect that most of us do not need to do many of these things or at least not frequently enough to develop the needed skill. That is unless we are obsessive, and yes some of us are but I think that is beside the point.

That is to say that there was a point made earlier about not grading a kindergartner with a phd student or something like that. Forgive me for taking liberties with the phrasing but I think it gets the point across.

[ken123]

Excellent comments, Joe.

So I think starting with basics for beginners would be a good starting point.

Only as a suggestion, could we give a 'C' to a sharpener who can create and remove a burr ?

Let's get this worked out and go from there.

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Ken

[milkbaby]

Only some knife sharpening nuts could turn this into a 6 page thread. LOL

Grading A, B, C, etcetera means some type of expected standards for each level and somebody assessing whether these standards are met.

On a practical level, I don't think that's very useful or important. On a passaround knife, the typical request might be that it be sharpened only by "those who know what they're doing". But those who actually end up sharpening it might be more accurately described as "those who are confident that they know what they're doing". On your own knives, you might perhaps have a changing scale of satisfaction depending on how your skills and expectations change over time. If you sharpen other people's knives for them, the scale might be a simple unsatisfactory or satisfactory.

[salemj]

^^^I would agree with you, but I turn again to the OP. I'm not approaching the idea of relative grading scales as my own project, but in response to the OP.

Put another way, the thread was started because someone was specifically interested in judging his own skills relative to others on the forum. So, whether or not it is useful to most of us for where WE are at personally, it seems useful to the OP and, in all seriousness, for that simple reason, it is probably useful to others.

That said, I'm not particularly interested in a grading scale at all, so I don't have strong opinions or suggestions on that front. My goal was merely to clarify the function of a grading scale and its appropriateness to the OP's concerns, regardless of whether or not it was useful or appropriate to other members.

To me, our willingness to battle these subtle (and remarkably personal!) issues as a group rather than as mere individuals spouting off our own opinions says a tremendous amount about this forum. There are virtually no posts above this one that approach this topic or any specific responses in a negative or derogatory way. It is a high moment, and it is also a sign of our collective co-op approach to sharpening and recommendations more broadly. What's more, I say this even after I am tiring of this tread! But I still think it is great.

[gladius]

Dilly Dilly!

[Jeff B]

...There are virtually no posts above this one that approach this topic or any specific responses in a negative or derogatory way...[/b]

Grading is stupid, you can either sharpen or you can't. If you can't your pitiful, I can so that makes me great.

How's that Joe?
You are right though, amazing that a conversation like this could go this many pages without any obvious negativity interjected.
This truly is a great and supportive community.

[Bensbites]

...There are virtually no posts above this one that approach this topic or any specific responses in a negative or derogatory way...[/b]

Grading is stupid, you can either sharpen or you can't. If you can't your pitiful, I can so that makes me great.

How's that Joe?
You are right though, amazing that a conversation like this could go this many pages without any obvious negativity interjected.
This truly is a great and supportive community.

You should see what happened on other forums when I asked the same question.

[Jeff B]

^^^ Oh I've seen some of those conversations! Too many swollen egos on most other forums for me.