Stones/Progression for *German* knives

[woppinger]

Much of the discussion here is (understandably) focused around how to sharpen and maintain hard steel Japanese knives - but what stones/progression would you recommend for Wusthofs and the like for a typical home cook who wants a knife that feels as sharp as it was new OOTB (but isn't planning on shaving with it or anything) and might occasionally "abuse" it on soft bones, hard squash, etc?

[Ourorboros]

People mostly stop at 2K. The green brick seems popular, Shapton is said to be good with Germans. The advantage of the Green Brick is that you may not worry as much about loading, soft as it is. I've used the Kohetsu 2K with success. 1K isn't uncommon.
A few people strop.
Where you start depends on how dull the knife is. With a hard stone like a Shapton you may feel more of the "gumming up" problem with soft steels.

[Jeff B]

I generally start with a 320 grit SP to get a quick apex and then just jump right to a 2k. A bare leather strop at the end when in the mood can make that edge scary. The OOTB edge won't compare.

[Gregory27]

I, generally, start on a Shapton Glass 500, unless the edge is nonexistent or there's damage, then I start on a 140 plate. The SG 500 gets the job done fast, and is a easy jump to a 2k stone. Which 2k stone I use depends on if I'm home or using my traveling kit. At home, a Green Brick, on the road, a Shapton Pro. I like the feel of the brick better, but the Shapton works fast, doesn't require a soak, and doesn't dish nearly as fast, so its more convenient. Both definitely get the job done, they are just very different means to a similar end.

[Kit Craft]

Yea, I like my SG500 SP2k combo.

[Lepus]

The Green Brick is good for this but the Shapton Pro is close to as good. I often go Cerax 320 Chosera 1000 Shapton 2000 on German knives. A 320 to 2000 jump is doable, but unnecessary if you have the other stones. Alternately I just stop on the Chosera, it does a great job.

[jmcnelly85]

I’ve been keeping my germans in shape with a one stone strategy using the kohetsu 800 lightly stropped on newspaper lately and have really liked how they perform on my 8 inch chefs knife and 8 inch slicer. I’ve also used the shapton pro 1.5k, green brick (favorite for my wife’s thinner santoku), and kohetsu 2k as finishing stones following a shapton pro 320 with great success, but more often than not I get equal performance with better retention from the 800.

[Jeff B]

...A 320 to 2000 jump is doable, but unnecessary if you have the other stones...

With most knives I would agree but on soft German steel it's an easy jump.

[Kit Craft]

Very basic carbon makes these jumps well also. White, Swedish carbon, 10xx etc.

[ken123]

I really like the edge I get from an Aoto Japanese natural stone. I use this following either a 1k 1500 or 2k synthetic. I find the edge lasts longer for my needs.

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Ken

[Peter Nowlan]

Now I just learned something new Ken. I thought an Aoto was a coarse natural stone, one used to begin the sharpening. Perhaps it is the most coarse of the naturals. In any event it’s a stone I’ve longed for for many years.

[ken123]

Peter there are coarser naturals too. You should get one. Not too expensive, even including shipping.

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Ken

[Igalor]

I finish all my co-workers knives on a sp 2000, and use whatever coarser stone there is, lately a suehiro chemical stone 800, a hard splash and go stone that i picked up a long time ago and had lying there, so I took it to work to leave as house stone since our trusty king 800 finally died.

[cwillett]

Last night we went to dinner at friends house and as our kids played I sharpened two of their German knives. Basic Henckels, which a gritty edge coming from too many passes through a pull through "sharpener". Dull enough to be safe for my 2 year old to play with. I used the following progression: Cerax 320->Felt strop->Cerax 1k->Felt Strop->Rika 5k->Felt Strop->Balsa strop with 1 micron diamond paste->bovine strop. Each knife took about 20 minutes, with half that on the 320. The last two strops are more for aesthetics (shiny edge) than anything else. The felt strops to remove any last vestiges of burr or a wire edge. Both knives shaved arm hair easily and the owners were quite happy.

I'd really recommend starting with a low grit stone like the 320. I wish that when I first started sharpening I had gotten one. I would have saved a lot of time and wear on my 1k.

Edit: If I had a 2 or 3k stone, I would have used it instead of the 5k. But I don't.

[PappaG]

I only have one german knife, a $100 henkle from Bed bath and beyond. I have been using my King 300 and then King 1200 with success as of late.

[marlinspike]

I'm surprised to see such coarse grits. I have never used anything coarser than 1000, and I finish my German knives at 5000. That said, I do keep my knives to where they shave. If I didn't, I still think I'd go to 3000.

[ken123]

"... took it to work to leave as house stone since our trusty king 800 finally died."

Well if you need a BIG 800 King, let me know This one is a soaker and 230 mm long (about 9")

"Each knife took about 20 minutes, with half that on the 320"
I would CERTAINLY suggest starting at a coarser grit to cut your sharpening time in [at least] half. Coarse grits are an acquired taste, best appreciated by the time they save you.

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Ken

[ken123]

Now I just learned something new Ken. I thought an Aoto was a coarse natural stone, one used to begin the sharpening. Perhaps it is the most coarse of the naturals. In any event it’s a stone I’ve longed for for many years.

Here's a couple of nice muddy Aotos to drool over ...

and one with mud (very large Aono Aoto) :

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Ken

[Lepus]

On reflection, I wanted to clarify why I sharpen certain knives to dofferent refinement. It will be good for me to get this down in writing.

First, one thing that doesn't play into my decision. If you look around a lot of people say a German knife is too soft to hold a high polish edge. Since I started sharpening analytically I haven't used Germans enough to back that up and I know Pete in particular disagrees for reasons I think hold water. I may test it out on a coworker.

My first and biggest reason is that a high polish edge is for me something to be cautiously awarded. Coarser edges offer something I like: hunger. Many pocket knife guys sharpen their pocket knives to extrodinary levels of refinement, to the tune of 50,000 grit edges or further, and I have always scoffed at that. Yes, it makes their pocket jewelry shiny, but what does it gain? You can watch these knives go through a lot of testing and by and large they do not match what most kitchen knife people consider fine edges, in the 5000 grit range. The tests they win simulated unrealistic scenarios. It is impressive to see it done as an exhibition of skill, but I don't whittle hair with my pocket knives. A few years ago, considering this got me thinking about my own proclivities. I had been educated to think in terms of coarse->medium->fine, but I don't cut steaks or broccoli with my pocket knives, either. I had long known I could get a good edge off a 320 grit stone, but I looked at that stone as a starting point only. I started to use aggressively coarser edges in real life and found they were better for many things. I keep my pocket knives sharpened on a coarse stone these days, usually in the 300-400 grit range but sometimes as coarse as straight from an Atoma 140. These edges roar through packaging and take literally five to thirty seconds to touch up. I keep most kitchen knives in the 1000-4000 range. This is enough refinement to do anything these knives need to do and leaves them with enough tooth to feel hungry. They cut any food cleanly. They also, again, touch up fast. And when I have a knife made from a fine steel that will savor more polish and will be used in scenarios where that polish will be appreciated, I consider going up to higher grits. There is some stainless that gets on that list, but usually these are fine grained carbons that will be used on produce in large quantities.

Any of those edges is objectively sharp. I can shave off of many of my coarse stones and certainly off a Chosera 1000. They just have different character that I find to fit specific needs.

I also sharpen Germans coarser because of how the knives will usually be used and maintained. A German knife is likely to be used with the weight of the knife and them some to slam through cuts and is intended to be honed on a steel periodically. When a high polish edge is smashed into a board to finely mince garlic or ripped across a honing steel, the work that went into polishing the edge into a thin orderly apex is gone. The apex is bent, maybe only a little but bent all the same, and there is minute microchipping that will leave the edge jagged. The edge loses that fresh off the stone crispness immediately. If I used many German knives I could theoretically take them a little finer because I could trust myself to strop rather than hone, but the draw to using more German knives is their capacity for aggressive use and the ability to hone on a steel.

[cwillett]

"Each knife took about 20 minutes, with half that on the 320"
I would CERTAINLY suggest starting at a coarser grit to cut your sharpening time in [at least] half. Coarse grits are an acquired taste, best appreciated by the time they save you.

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Ken

Previously I'd start on an Atoma 140 plate, which was really unpleasant. The 320 is a joy to use and it works quickly. Of the 10 minutes that I'd spend on it, perhaps 3-4 was with edge trailing strokes to try to eliminate as much of the burr as possible before moving on to the 1k. Starting with a 1k on knives these dull would have been an exercise in frustration management.