Looking for sharpening advice.

[Bensbites]

Current setup.

Knives-

Carbons
Tojiro ITK nakiri
Artifex 52100 210 gyuto
Yoshimitsu 210 bunka blue 2

AEB-L
Richmond fanatic gen 1 cleaver
Artifex SAB 250

Lots of other assorted stuff.

Stones
King 220/800, and 8000
Norton 1k/4K

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I have been working on improving my sharpening skill set by talking/texting with a buddy who’s knives blow me away at how sharp the edges are.

I can generate a burr and abrade or fatigue the burr off the knife. From my understanding the edge is still not perfect but need to reform the apex without generating a wire edge. This is my current struggle. I think I am doing a passable job here, I just want to be better.

Edit: right now I am focusing on the best edge I can get off the 1k norton.

Any advice?
Thank you
B

[AlbuquerqueDan]

Hi Ben.

I bet I'm in the exact situation as you: looking to learn as much as possible about how to get a REALLY sharp and durable edge. I'll be following this thread to see what sage advice is put forth.

In the meantime, I feel like I have made a measurable improvement in my sharpening every time I get to try a knife that has been sharpened by someone else. My first J knife was the sharpest knife I had ever used up to that point in my life and it set the benchmark. I sharpened my other (western) knives to that level.

Then I bought another knife from Mark, and Anton put an edge on it before they shipped it out. Whoa! Whole new level of sharp! Back to the stones I went, knowing now what was possible.

Since then, I've bought knives from Mark, JKI, and JNS, and each time I get to try out - and try to match - another fabulous edge. I have also had the good fortune to discover that another forum member (and talented sharpener) lives a few doors down from me, so I've been able to try his edges and learn from him (Hi neighbor Ben!).

Right now my benchmark knife is my new Toyama sujihiki. If I could get all my knives that sharp, I would probably be content (until the next knife comes with an even better edge!).

Anyway, that was long-winded, but the point is: try to experience a great edge, then practice practice practice until you match it. (In terms of practice, I've been practicing with very light pressure and am seeing better results. Hopefully others will chime in with many more specific tips).

It also sounds like you've learned a lot lately, too. Is there anything you've done that has elevated your sharpening skills that you'd like to share?

[Rufus Leaking]

As a machinist, my goal in sharpening a knife is to look beyond the obvious in the operation. You’re taking a really hard material and you’re using friction against a stationary abrasive in order to remove material. That’s the basis. The devil is in the details. Consistency and repeatability are the key. If you can’t maintain the exact angle over and over again, you’re just pissing in the wind. The Edge Pro looks real attractive to me, and I’ll eventually make something similar, but in the meantime, when I sharpen, I still use an angle guide- two, actually- I’ve even gone as far as to attach them to the stones early on, but I’ve gotten better at my ergonomics since. I maintain the same stance. I approach both sides of the knife by copying a right hand position for the left side of the blade, and mirroring that same position for the right side of the blade. You almost need to take a beta blocker to maintain such an acute angle in a repeating fashion. Breath control helps. I exhale as I push the blade, and I lean into my work. For me, I continue to improve, and make subtle changes- fingertip pressure, position of the fingers on the blade, but always, the emphasis is on maintaining a consistent angle.

[ken123]

Learn how to generate a burr. Then learn how NOT to generate a burr.

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Ken

[gladius]

Learn how to generate a burr. Then learn how NOT to generate a burr.

—-
Wise advice from experience.

[milkbaby]

As a machinist, my goal in sharpening a knife is to look beyond the obvious in the operation. You’re taking a really hard material and you’re using friction against a stationary abrasive in order to remove material. That’s the basis. The devil is in the details. Consistency and repeatability are the key. If you can’t maintain the exact angle over and over again, you’re just pissing in the wind. The Edge Pro looks real attractive to me, and I’ll eventually make something similar, but in the meantime, when I sharpen, I still use an angle guide- two, actually- I’ve even gone as far as to attach them to the stones early on, but I’ve gotten better at my ergonomics since. I maintain the same stance. I approach both sides of the knife by copying a right hand position for the left side of the blade, and mirroring that same position for the right side of the blade. You almost need to take a beta blocker to maintain such an acute angle in a repeating fashion. Breath control helps. I exhale as I push the blade, and I lean into my work. For me, I continue to improve, and make subtle changes- fingertip pressure, position of the fingers on the blade, but always, the emphasis is on maintaining a consistent angle.

I agree that a constant angle is important but you saying the same angle for all knives? Because that isn't ideal. Also, adjusting to reduce steering in an asymmetric knife is another instance where you can't just use the same angle.

[ken123]

...

I agree that a constant angle is important but you saying the same angle for all knives? Because that isn't ideal. Also, adjusting to reduce steering in an asymmetric knife is another instance where you can't just use the same angle.

Actually you can use the same angle. There is a very misleading post to the contrary on another forum suggesting otherwise.

Now there are instances where you want to NOT use the same angle along the length of the whole blade. The deba is an example where you want the heel to be less acute to do heavier work and the tip is finer for more delicate work.

---
Ken

[milkbaby]

...

I agree that a constant angle is important but you saying the same angle for all knives? Because that isn't ideal. Also, adjusting to reduce steering in an asymmetric knife is another instance where you can't just use the same angle.

Actually you can use the same angle. There is a very misleading post to the contrary on another forum suggesting otherwise.

Now there are instances where you want to NOT use the same angle along the length of the whole blade. The deba is an example where you want the heel to be less acute to do heavier work and the tip is finer for more delicate work.

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Ken

I agree with you on the last point for any knife if desired to do heavier work towards the heel.

However I don't understand where you're saying the same angle is ideal? As I said originally, only using one angle for all knives and on both sides isn't ideal. You aren't suggesting that a soft German knife should be sharpened to the same acute angle as a very hard Japanese knife, right?

As for asymmetric knives the angles can depend on what you desire. It's perfectly fine to sharpen the same angle if it cuts the way you like. But in the case of steering, usually clockwise for right hand biased asymmetry, then a less acute angle on the left side will help counteract steering. I'm of the school of thought that says test whatever edge you put on a knife and then adjust for it to work optimally the way you desire. Sticking with only one angle always for all knives violates this principle.

[ken123]

Well we agree on one point

Regarding edge asymmetry this video may help



So I basically maintain that you can adjust edge asymmetry by how much you grind the right or left sides. More grinding yields larger bevels which adjusts the edge asymmetry.

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Ken

[Peter Nowlan]

For someone learning, and beyond, I believe that building muscle memory for two angles will suffice for all knives.
I get students to start with one “pinky” angle which is about 16-18 deg and sharpen at that angle until their increase in muscle memory allows them to stabilize that angle, on both sides.

After that, you can have an average knife pinky angle and a dream knife, more acute angle. So 10-15 or 15-20 deg per side. After that, yes you can fine tune for Debas and such.

Angle stability is more important than the actual angle, whether it’s 15, 16 or 19 deg. I’ve never had a chef say something like “ I see you sharpened this at 16 Deg, I wanted it done at 15 deg” It’s only us folks who fret about this stuff, In my opinion.

All kitchen knives fall in the 10-20 deg range anyway.

[Rufus Leaking]

To clear up any misunderstanding, when I stated that maintaining a consistent angle, the SAME angle, I meant just on that one edge, that one knife. I didn’t mean that every knife should be sharpened using that same angle, although that would work for symmetrical knives, I suppose. I still maintain that it is near impossible to do it, though, and this is the biggest impediment to sharpening a knife, IMO. If anyone thinks they can maintain the same exact angle by hand, they are a better man than I. If you keep it in mind that this is your goal, though, I believe you will be satisfied with your results.

[loco_food_guy]

Learn how to generate a burr. Then learn how NOT to generate a burr.

---
Ken

The force is strong with you!!!!

[ken123]

Yes it is ....

[milkbaby]

Well we agree on one point

Regarding edge asymmetry this video may help



So I basically maintain that you can adjust edge asymmetry by how much you grind the right or left sides. More grinding yields larger bevels which adjusts the edge asymmetry.

I think the only thing we disagree on is the preferred way to adjust for steering on an asymmetric knife. There is more than one way to skin a cat. Your way of grinding equal angles but grinding down the backside more adjusts by pushing the cutting edge towards the frontside of the knife (backside=left, frontside=right in the traditional right hand biased asymmetric geometry). The pros are that it is easier for most people to use a consistent angle rather than adjusting but the cons are that you use up more steel initially.

The way I prefer with the more acute angle on the frontside and less acute on the backside more closely maintains the edge at the original location and uses less steel. However the downside is using different angles may be harder without the ingrained muscle memory for many people. And this is why, and I think you'll agree with me 100% here, people should never grind away mindlessly but should always take time to check their work while sharpening.

[ken123]

Agreed to keep track of things during the process. One of the problems with separate angles for the two blade sides comes with wanting to thin the blade. So let's say one side is at 20 degrees and you want to reduce it to 10 degrees. What is the formula you use to predict the appropriate angle for the opposite side?

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Ken

[milkbaby]

I agree with you Ken, there is no simple calculation what angle works best. My approach is thin to more acute on the right hand side first then test: is the steering less, is the edge stable/not too fragile. Then microbevel the left side. Keep on testing until the results you desire.

I don't feel it is too different from trying to figure out how much more to grind the left versus the right in your method. You still go by experience and testing is what I'm guessing.

This is definitely a knife nerd discussion, LOL.

Going back to Ben's original post, I think it's great to learn from everybody and try things out yourself. Some things come easier to some people than others, but as long as one is getting edges they are happy with, it's all good. For example, a lot of people scrub, others only do edge trailing, others only edge leading, but all can produce crazy sharp tree topping edges.

[ken123]

+1 All good points.

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Ken