Where to start with natural stone?

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Jason H
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Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Jason H »

I’ve never used a natural and giving it some thought. If I was to buy just one stone, what would be a good starting point?
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Bensbites »

I was advised to call ken123. Look at his signature for his contact info. I haven’t pulled the trigger yet.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by ken123 »

Consider an Aoto... Reasonable price, great edge...

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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by loco_food_guy »

Wise man named Kit here suggested an Aono Aoto for my first stone. I have bought a few more since and still love that stone very much. Just my .02 Cents.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Jason H »

ken123 wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:49 pm Consider an Aoto... Reasonable price, great edge...

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Is an Aoto a brand, a type, or grit rating?
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Kalaeb »

Turn around and run....I just saved you from falling into a deep hole.
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Kit Craft
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Kit Craft »

loco_food_guy wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:00 pm Wise man named Kit here suggested an Aono Aoto for my first stone. I have bought a few more since and still love that stone very much. Just my .02 Cents.
I still think an Aono Aoto is a great starter for many people. It leaves a wonderfully bite filled edge yet starting to get refined and it is just so easy to use. The fact that the are affordable is another great thing. These were a popular rec long before I found them! JSG praised this stone a lot as well. Wonder where he is...

But you know...there are more than a few good priced finishing stones out there if that is what one wanted to start with. Oouchi is a nice well rounded stone that is not too hard, not to soft, works well for single and double bevels and leaves a fairly dark contrast. Muddy but not a monster. It is normally had for around $130-150 too. Aframes and JKI normally have them in stock. I do not think Mark or Ken have them but I could be wrong as Ken and I have not had a chat on the phone in awhile.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by ken123 »

"I do not think Mark or Ken have them but I could be wrong as Ken and I have not had a chat on the phone in awhile."

We should have a chat.... Yea I have a good selection of Aotos :)

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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Badgertooth »

Team Aizu is gonna chip in here. I’ve had miserable luck with aoto and find Monzento more useful for nerding out on polishes. Aizu is a great intro stone and leaves just about the best kitchen knife edge you could hope for, at about 5k
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Kit Craft »

Badgertooth wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:42 am Team Aizu is gonna chip in here. I’ve had miserable luck with aoto and find Monzento more useful for nerding out on polishes. Aizu is a great intro stone and leaves just about the best kitchen knife edge you could hope for, at about 5k
I really like my Aizu, as you know, but I have a hard time recommending it as a first stone as it is a bit tricky to get used to. I still have all three of mine and my favorite probably comes in at around 3-4k. Feels a lot damn harder than it is too. But that edge...My KS and Aizu pair up so well.

As for Monzento, see, the polish was not as good as I was expecting. An okay working finish but an edge that leaves tooth for days. Great for butchery! Lovely for cheap moderately soft stainless.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Badgertooth »

Kit Craft wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:40 am
As for Monzento, see, the polish was not as good as I was expecting. An okay working finish but an edge that leaves tooth for days. Great for butchery! Lovely for cheap moderately soft stainless.
It’s also only useful for about 20 passes before it dishes like a hot toblerone chocolate. I’ve been using it as an enormous donor stone for a hard Thai binsui where it provides the perfect buffer and polishing medium. Agreed on the toothy butchery goodness.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Kit Craft »

Badgertooth wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 4:22 pm
Kit Craft wrote: Wed Feb 07, 2018 7:40 am
As for Monzento, see, the polish was not as good as I was expecting. An okay working finish but an edge that leaves tooth for days. Great for butchery! Lovely for cheap moderately soft stainless.
It’s also only useful for about 20 passes before it dishes like a hot toblerone chocolate. I’ve been using it as an enormous donor stone for a hard Thai binsui where it provides the perfect buffer and polishing medium. Agreed on the toothy butchery goodness.
I agree it dishes fast but not near as fast as my amakusa, that thing melts under a knife. Mine is very, very large too so it is easier to move around so that the dishing does not catch up with you too fast.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Andreu »

Kit Craft wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:23 pm
loco_food_guy wrote: Tue Feb 06, 2018 8:00 pm Wise man named Kit here suggested an Aono Aoto for my first stone. I have bought a few more since and still love that stone very much. Just my .02 Cents.
I still think an Aono Aoto is a great starter for many people. It leaves a wonderfully bite filled edge yet starting to get refined and it is just so easy to use. The fact that the are affordable is another great thing. These were a popular rec long before I found them! JSG praised this stone a lot as well. Wonder where he is...

But you know...there are more than a few good priced finishing stones out there if that is what one wanted to start with. Oouchi is a nice well rounded stone that is not too hard, not to soft, works well for single and double bevels and leaves a fairly dark contrast. Muddy but not a monster. It is normally had for around $130-150 too. Aframes and JKI normally have them in stock. I do not think Mark or Ken have them but I could be wrong as Ken and I have not had a chat on the phone in awhile.
I second Kit on the Oouchi from Jon(JKI). I was lucky enough to snag the last large Oouchi with the base a couple of weeks ago. It generates mud without the aid of a nagura. It leaves a nice fine finish with bite and a nice kasumi contrast. Not too hard nor too soft. These are still available in the medium size. My first Jnats were a couple of uchimugori benchstones which are also great to start with since they are forgiving. But if I were to start over again with Jnats, my choice will be the Oouchi.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Kit Craft »

Another good choice might be one of the thin Takashima that Mr. Watanabe has mounted to a base on his koppa page. Idk if they are still there but he had a few that were reasonably priced.
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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by ken123 »

I do have a couple of Takashima. They are fine stones but certainly not where I would start for this thread. There is a certain amount of variability in these stone samples.

I don't have any uchigumori or oouchi but again I feel these are a bit too specific.[[Well I do have one Marukei Uchigumori, but it isn't for sale.] I'll stick with Aono Aoto. It is a bit muddier, but I feel that learning to deal with and optimize mud is a critical learning skill for starting on naturals. Takashima are a bit too fine for this. Not knocking the stone, just its use as a starting point. I would tend to use the Takashima after a polisher like the Yaginoshima Asagi for instance.

Another interesting choice would be Tajima. Harder than the Aoto but an excellent midgrit stone (Nakado). I have several of these in smaller size.

There are a number of different Aoto stones (another topic) that could be used but they are more expensive. All good stones, but I suggest these for people who have 'experienced' Aono Aoto stones.

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Re: Where to start with natural stone?

Post by Kit Craft »

I like my Tajima too. Maybe I am biased with where to start as I dove into half a dozen stones, lol. I actually think my Takashima is the easiest finisher I have ever used but I have not tried a Hakka. Mine is very, very soft. Maybe even softer than usual. If an Uchigumori hato is a 5/10 I would say this is a 6/10 and my yagnoshima a 8/10. For contrast my Oouchi and Hideriyama are probably right in the middle at 8/10. I don't know if they are harder than normal examples or my Takashima is softer because I can only base it off of the Takashima as I had three of them and they were about about the same hardness but this one is a bit more spongy and creamy in feel so I kept it!

I still agree that aono aoto in specific is the stone I suggest to everyone looking to start with naturals in general. However, some people want to start with a finishing stone. If that were the case I like things like Takashima, Oouchi, Hideriyama, Hakka, and I might throw Yaginoshima Asagi in there. Yes, Mauro-yama, Shobu, Ohira and many others also produce soft stones but my experience has been that the previous three/four are consistently easier to use.

The other thing is size, these stones do not have to be expensive and I know a lot of people think they do and that scares them away. Sure, a brick size Takashima might cost $350+ But a smaller one is half that or less! There are also oddballs out there like labeled soft Mizukihara and Ohira Iromono/Akane koppas for $75-125.

As for mud management, you can learn that on an awase-to as well. Just polish the wide bevel. :)
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