Just to be clear: if the grind is asymmetrical and you sharpen it according to the grind, then the bevels WILL be asymmetrical. All I was trying to clarify above is that one should be clear whether the question is bevels only, or if one is referring to asymmetrical grinds. I cannot think of a single example that I've ever read or seen in a knife advertisement on sites other than CKTG in which any reference to asymmetry was not actually referring fundamentally to the grind, even if it used the word bevel. CKTG is kinda unique in that Mark really likes to stress 50/50 grinds whenever he feels a knife will work just as well for left handers (at least that is my impression—I don't mean to speak for him). But on most other sites, discussion of grinds or bevels virtually always seems to refer to grind first, bevel second.
This is one thing that has always confused me about Korin—they suggest they can change the asymmetry of a Suisin Inox. I own an Inox. The grind to me is very obviously asymmetrical. Regardless of what one does to the bevel, the knife will feel and perform like an asymmetrical knife, because the primary grind and convex is on the right side. Changing the bevels will have little to no effect on the important convexing of the grind itself and how it feels in use.
Anyways, all of this is to say that I would expect stock bevels to be asymmetrical on the KS due to the grind. I would be surprised if someone chimed in saying they were 100% positive that the grind on their KS was 50/50 but that the bevels were asymmetrical.
KS Asymetry
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Kit Craft
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Re: KS Asymetry
Holding a straight edge to each face on my KS seems to show what appears to be the same gap in the last few mil above the edge. Like I said, it probably is not 50/50 but it is not super noticeable, to me, via the naked eye. The edge bevel size, ootb was also so damn close I'd never have noticed the difference. So that is both grind and edge. Again, maybe 60/40 but it is ground fairly thin and is hard for me to notice. Which is NOT the case with many other knives. Some knives are clearly so far out of whack you can not only see it but feel the convex on one side and flat on the other. You can also see that the edge is off center and the bevels are clearly different.
Regardless I think people worry about these things too much. The stone will tell you where your edge is or at least the edge of the edge and you can adjust from there. If you are thinning the entire grind then there is a built in angle guide anyway...
Then again I am not good with the scientific aspect of things and or the math. I have a stone, I have a knife and I sharpen it to work correctly...
Rather so that it does not wedge or steer in my hands.
Regardless I think people worry about these things too much. The stone will tell you where your edge is or at least the edge of the edge and you can adjust from there. If you are thinning the entire grind then there is a built in angle guide anyway...
Then again I am not good with the scientific aspect of things and or the math. I have a stone, I have a knife and I sharpen it to work correctly...
Rather so that it does not wedge or steer in my hands.-
salemj
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Re: KS Asymetry
Kit, I think your attitude is great. But I would also argue that you are actually putting a lot of effort into this aspect of your knives, just not in terms of "asymmetry" as a concept.
What I mean is, you are clearly always "reacting" to what you feel on the stones in a very nuanced and intimate way. That, to me, is "worrying about these things," but more in terms of craft than in terms of concept. The point, then, is that you do what works—and I respect that (and agree with it). I don't mean to over-discuss things or to make them abstract. In fact, my goal is the opposite. I feel like the more we accept that the person grinding the knife is not "counting strokes" but actually just trying to get a good grind on a very thin piece of metal at very high speed, the more likely we are going to relax and go with what works and what feels right by responding to how the knife feels in action and on the stones. You have a bit of a different approach and philosophy, but again, I'd argue that it is actually toward similar ends. I wonder if you would agree, however!
What I mean is, you are clearly always "reacting" to what you feel on the stones in a very nuanced and intimate way. That, to me, is "worrying about these things," but more in terms of craft than in terms of concept. The point, then, is that you do what works—and I respect that (and agree with it). I don't mean to over-discuss things or to make them abstract. In fact, my goal is the opposite. I feel like the more we accept that the person grinding the knife is not "counting strokes" but actually just trying to get a good grind on a very thin piece of metal at very high speed, the more likely we are going to relax and go with what works and what feels right by responding to how the knife feels in action and on the stones. You have a bit of a different approach and philosophy, but again, I'd argue that it is actually toward similar ends. I wonder if you would agree, however!
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
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Kit Craft
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Re: KS Asymetry
I think I normally agree even when I do not realize it...lol. Sometimes I wonder how different these conversations would go in person when one can pick up a knife and look at it and pass it down the line.
As for me putting a lot of effort into this aspect of my knives, I had never thought of it that way.
As an aside I normally test my knives on my, lefty, brother. I am not as perceptive to differences in the left face as he is for obvious reasons. God forbid I try to cut with my left hand though. I'd never be able to post here again after chopping off my hand!
As for me putting a lot of effort into this aspect of my knives, I had never thought of it that way.
As an aside I normally test my knives on my, lefty, brother. I am not as perceptive to differences in the left face as he is for obvious reasons. God forbid I try to cut with my left hand though. I'd never be able to post here again after chopping off my hand!
Re: KS Asymetry
Thanks joe and kit. @joe, i get what your saying about referring to grind. It just seems when ive come across knives that have an asymetric grind that they often seem to have asymetric edges or at leasy it causes me to pause and think about this aspect, when approaching them to sharpen. Where as knives with a more symetric or supposed 50/50 i just assume sharpen them symmetrically. When i felt for the angles on the ks it seemed asymetric, eventhough i cant see it in the bevel kit.
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Kit Craft
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Re: KS Asymetry
When you say you feel it, do you mean on the stones or through product? I ask because the KS does feel more like my asymmetric knives than those more closer to 50/50 when it comes to denser foods. That could be my imagination though and just be part of how the knife works and I have invented a reason why because of this discussion.
If you mean sharpening, I normally feel asymmetry due to bevel width, which I do not feel on the ks at all. Now, height to the stone might be a degree or two different. Hell maybe three or four BUT I always sharpen like that naturally so it is very hard for me to discern.
Though I wonder, are not all hand ground knives at least slightly biased by the handedness of the maker? Talking to Jon B. a few times on the phone and asking about asymmetry he told me that ALL handmade J-knives have at least a small degree of asymmetry even when listed as 50/50.
If you mean sharpening, I normally feel asymmetry due to bevel width, which I do not feel on the ks at all. Now, height to the stone might be a degree or two different. Hell maybe three or four BUT I always sharpen like that naturally so it is very hard for me to discern.
Though I wonder, are not all hand ground knives at least slightly biased by the handedness of the maker? Talking to Jon B. a few times on the phone and asking about asymmetry he told me that ALL handmade J-knives have at least a small degree of asymmetry even when listed as 50/50.
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salemj
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Re: KS Asymetry
Yeah, I think the point here isn't to diminish the skill of the craftsmen (or to suggest that there are obvious, subtle, "handmade" variations), but rather to think about how these are made and how people are trained.
We know a few things: traditional Japanese knives are usually single-bevel, and for specific reasons often to do with performance (separation in particular); many early Japanese gyutos seemed to have bias, and many still do (I'm thinking knives like Misono UX-10, Masamoto VG, Suisin Inox, and other early cross-over blades that did not attempt to "copy" the Western market from the start using Western manufacturing methods, like Global). Put another way, asymmetry is the "right/default" way to think about grinding a knife for many makers right from the start, and for "performance-related" reasons mostly coming from traditional blades that have a built-in bias to assist with separating and directing the cut piece away from the primary ingredient.
Makoto knives are a great example of this: despite strong attempts at looking symmetrical, they are CLEARLY asymmetrical (as are some of Yo's). Virtually every good choil shot I've seen from these guys of their thinner knives has a deliberate "S" grind on the right blade face, and lacks one on the other side. While it appears more 50/50 toward the edge and along the bladevroads, the fact is they are purposely designing, maintaining, and finishing the blade with a built-in asymmetry to aid in a certain kind of cut and release on the right side of the blade, and a different one on the left side of the blade. I would not presume this is just a result of being hand-made, but rather claim that this is deliberate and that to ignore or diminish it is to ignore the skill and practice it took them to "build in" this asymmetry into an otherwise "symmetrical" looking and feeling blade. To my eye, this often also extends to the edge: there is usually a stronger concave grind on the blade road on the right side of the blade, too, for the first cm of the edge, which suggests this side was thinned longer and more specifically at the edge against the wheel or whatever, while the other side of the blade was thinned across the bladeface (perhaps because the other side lacks the upper geometry subtlety of an "S" grind, etc.)
These makers - and I would include every Konosuke I own in this camp, too, including Fujiyamas - are, in my mind, some of the most amenable to Western suppliers, too: one gets the sense that both of them from early one were trying to supply knives that met the specific requests of Western suppliers, including a preference for 50/50 grinds, while also maintaining "traditional" Japanese design characteristics.
The point, however, is that I am talking about grind and geometry, not bevels. Do the bevels have to follow this asymmetry? No, of course not. But I feel as if many knives (especially slightly thicker ones) "feel" like they want to be sharpened with this bias—and that include knives like HDs which appear to be sharpened mostly on machines, so the bevels (when new) are very difficult to see or match, leaving the geometry to be the guide (this is less true now as more makers have begun finish-sharpening to impress customers, such as Masakage and Shibata). My Nubatama is a great example: it was clearly shaped to be a 50/50 blade, but it is obviously highly asymmetrical in how it was actually ground/made. And when I sharpen it, I feel this, and it makes me want to put a steeper, taller bevel on the right side to match the curvature there, and a shorter, more strength-reinforcing bevel on the left side, to complement the slightly flatter geometry there. Even when working on thinning upper portions of the knife, I "feel" as if there is more steel to remove on the right side than on the left, especially close to the tip, as if the actual axis of symmetry of the blade is offset even though the "shape" of the blade looks mostly 50/50 in a choil shot. If you don't know what I mean, take a blade like a Masamoto VG, which is essentially flat-ground on one side. You can take a choil shot that makes it look 50/50, but if you really follow its axis (such as by laying it on a table on the flat side), you can see that a "true" choil shot would show one side is essentially vertical and the other is angled to meet it.
All of that is to say that Kit's original pronouncement is probably closer to "appropriate" than going for 50/50 on most of these knives, especially if all of this sounds too specific. What I mean is, if you are going to "err" by not worrying too much about the asymmetry, then it is probably better to "err" by assuming there IS some rather than assuming there is not. And that means that is is probably better to just sharpen the knife in the way that feels "right" rather than worrying too much about counting strokes or measure bevel heights...at least from my perspective!
We know a few things: traditional Japanese knives are usually single-bevel, and for specific reasons often to do with performance (separation in particular); many early Japanese gyutos seemed to have bias, and many still do (I'm thinking knives like Misono UX-10, Masamoto VG, Suisin Inox, and other early cross-over blades that did not attempt to "copy" the Western market from the start using Western manufacturing methods, like Global). Put another way, asymmetry is the "right/default" way to think about grinding a knife for many makers right from the start, and for "performance-related" reasons mostly coming from traditional blades that have a built-in bias to assist with separating and directing the cut piece away from the primary ingredient.
Makoto knives are a great example of this: despite strong attempts at looking symmetrical, they are CLEARLY asymmetrical (as are some of Yo's). Virtually every good choil shot I've seen from these guys of their thinner knives has a deliberate "S" grind on the right blade face, and lacks one on the other side. While it appears more 50/50 toward the edge and along the bladevroads, the fact is they are purposely designing, maintaining, and finishing the blade with a built-in asymmetry to aid in a certain kind of cut and release on the right side of the blade, and a different one on the left side of the blade. I would not presume this is just a result of being hand-made, but rather claim that this is deliberate and that to ignore or diminish it is to ignore the skill and practice it took them to "build in" this asymmetry into an otherwise "symmetrical" looking and feeling blade. To my eye, this often also extends to the edge: there is usually a stronger concave grind on the blade road on the right side of the blade, too, for the first cm of the edge, which suggests this side was thinned longer and more specifically at the edge against the wheel or whatever, while the other side of the blade was thinned across the bladeface (perhaps because the other side lacks the upper geometry subtlety of an "S" grind, etc.)
These makers - and I would include every Konosuke I own in this camp, too, including Fujiyamas - are, in my mind, some of the most amenable to Western suppliers, too: one gets the sense that both of them from early one were trying to supply knives that met the specific requests of Western suppliers, including a preference for 50/50 grinds, while also maintaining "traditional" Japanese design characteristics.
The point, however, is that I am talking about grind and geometry, not bevels. Do the bevels have to follow this asymmetry? No, of course not. But I feel as if many knives (especially slightly thicker ones) "feel" like they want to be sharpened with this bias—and that include knives like HDs which appear to be sharpened mostly on machines, so the bevels (when new) are very difficult to see or match, leaving the geometry to be the guide (this is less true now as more makers have begun finish-sharpening to impress customers, such as Masakage and Shibata). My Nubatama is a great example: it was clearly shaped to be a 50/50 blade, but it is obviously highly asymmetrical in how it was actually ground/made. And when I sharpen it, I feel this, and it makes me want to put a steeper, taller bevel on the right side to match the curvature there, and a shorter, more strength-reinforcing bevel on the left side, to complement the slightly flatter geometry there. Even when working on thinning upper portions of the knife, I "feel" as if there is more steel to remove on the right side than on the left, especially close to the tip, as if the actual axis of symmetry of the blade is offset even though the "shape" of the blade looks mostly 50/50 in a choil shot. If you don't know what I mean, take a blade like a Masamoto VG, which is essentially flat-ground on one side. You can take a choil shot that makes it look 50/50, but if you really follow its axis (such as by laying it on a table on the flat side), you can see that a "true" choil shot would show one side is essentially vertical and the other is angled to meet it.
All of that is to say that Kit's original pronouncement is probably closer to "appropriate" than going for 50/50 on most of these knives, especially if all of this sounds too specific. What I mean is, if you are going to "err" by not worrying too much about the asymmetry, then it is probably better to "err" by assuming there IS some rather than assuming there is not. And that means that is is probably better to just sharpen the knife in the way that feels "right" rather than worrying too much about counting strokes or measure bevel heights...at least from my perspective!
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
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Kit Craft
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Re: KS Asymetry
Not to get off on an aside here but the Masamoto VG is a knife, like my Misono and my FKH that screams asymmetry in every aspect or at least to me. In fact, when I first got knives like that it was rather off putting to say the least. It looks mega thick behind the edge due to the way it is ground but it does not perform that way. I guess that is why I have a hard time with knives like a Kono HD, Gesshin Ginga and my KS because the feel and look fairly symmetrical by comparison.
That said, I sharpened my KS just a bit ago and it does in fact feel just like you say, Joe. It feels as if it wants to be sharpened asymmetric. But I still can not see it in the aftermath. Very interesting and something I actually had to pay attention to. I think I get a bit lost in the moment.
That said, I sharpened my KS just a bit ago and it does in fact feel just like you say, Joe. It feels as if it wants to be sharpened asymmetric. But I still can not see it in the aftermath. Very interesting and something I actually had to pay attention to. I think I get a bit lost in the moment.
Re: KS Asymetry
Thanks joe, ive explored this concept of using my eyes to see the asymetry at times. One particular ex knife was a murata buho santoku. And i sharpened it asymetrically trying to match the grind. Lately, ive been not sharpening a ton and when i do it's been even bevel lately, so i was just trying to knock off the rust before i went sharpening my new ks. But im glad it went this route, instead. It got me to slow down and take time to look at this subject again, which ive been passing by lately.
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salemj
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Re: KS Asymetry
I appreciate the dialogue, guys. This is one of those situations in which, at the start, it seems like someone (me) is trying to be a bully and assert a specific position, but in reality, the position I am trying to assert in a position of openness to a multitude of possibilities, and not a single, opinionated position of "one right way." I appreciate that you guys are honest and open about your own experience with the KS and other knives, especially since I don't even own one! (...which is another reason why I would not stupidly assert my above opinions as the one and only "fact")
You know what may be one of the best ways to test asymmetry? Skinning a round fruit/root on the board. I find more symmetrical blades are difficult to find and hold the precise angle of penetrating behind the skin without steering into the fruit (or root), while blades that are a little closer to flat on the left side are actually more easy and more predictable in this respect. Any of you guys notice this as well? Even subtle visual differences seem to feel a bit more pronounced with this action...
You know what may be one of the best ways to test asymmetry? Skinning a round fruit/root on the board. I find more symmetrical blades are difficult to find and hold the precise angle of penetrating behind the skin without steering into the fruit (or root), while blades that are a little closer to flat on the left side are actually more easy and more predictable in this respect. Any of you guys notice this as well? Even subtle visual differences seem to feel a bit more pronounced with this action...
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Re: KS Asymetry
Now this thread reminds me of the old forum:) As an Edge Pro user, this topic is something I've had to consider in practice quite frequently. There are a few things to unpack here:
Going back to the beginning of the thread, Joe is right to call out the fact that asymmetry, on double bevel knives, refers to the grind, not the edge bevel (yes , they can sometimes be one in the same, but not usually). On higher end knives, you will often find the grind taken right to the edge under the assumption that the user will/can apply their own edge to the knife. Indeed, if there is a pronounced edge on the knife OOTB that's not a great thing as regardless of the end user's technique, a new edge will be created and metal is removed unnecessarily. If there is an edge bevel on a knife you receive, it very well could have been applied by someone other than the sharpener of the knife as a convenience for the assumed end customer. This could mean that the edge bevel is inconsistent with the grind angles, or perfectly consistent.
Getting all of that out of the way, if one uses the final grind as a guide when sharpening, jig or freehand, the resulting edge bevel will likely approximate the (a)symmetry of the grind itself. If the grind is not used to place the edge, then the bevel angles will deviate from the grind.
Going back to the beginning of the thread, Joe is right to call out the fact that asymmetry, on double bevel knives, refers to the grind, not the edge bevel (yes , they can sometimes be one in the same, but not usually). On higher end knives, you will often find the grind taken right to the edge under the assumption that the user will/can apply their own edge to the knife. Indeed, if there is a pronounced edge on the knife OOTB that's not a great thing as regardless of the end user's technique, a new edge will be created and metal is removed unnecessarily. If there is an edge bevel on a knife you receive, it very well could have been applied by someone other than the sharpener of the knife as a convenience for the assumed end customer. This could mean that the edge bevel is inconsistent with the grind angles, or perfectly consistent.
Getting all of that out of the way, if one uses the final grind as a guide when sharpening, jig or freehand, the resulting edge bevel will likely approximate the (a)symmetry of the grind itself. If the grind is not used to place the edge, then the bevel angles will deviate from the grind.
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Kit Craft
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Re: KS Asymetry
I still feel like I have knives that are ground on a bias but have a 50/50 edge. I could be wrong but that is how it looks and how it feels in use and on the stones. Regardless, Mark does in fact market knives to have 50/50 edge BEVELS not grinds on a lot of ads. Koki does the same. That may well be an incorrect way of doing things as well, I don't know.
I should have added, that I really do not know and am glad this conversation came about because it is nice to learn things. But sometimes I type before my coffee and I come off like a crotchety old man.
I should have added, that I really do not know and am glad this conversation came about because it is nice to learn things. But sometimes I type before my coffee and I come off like a crotchety old man.
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salemj
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Re: KS Asymetry
^^^Haha.
Kit, I don't remember you from the old forum, but you post so much and are so active that it is easy to assume you've been in the game for a while. But I think what Chip and I are referring to (if I can speak for him as well about this one thing) is that Mark's OLD webpages actually DIDN'T talk a lot of 50/50 grinds or bevels. It was actually something that a lot of customers were confused and frustrated by. Over time, he started marketing knives more and more as having "near" 50/50 grinds and bevels to alleviate sharpening concerns by new purchasers...and of course, since Mark is super honest, he also continually talked to the makers of these knives and REQUESTED 50/50 grinds and bevels, even though he is fully aware that in many cases, that means they do whatever they want with the grind but then put a 50/50 edge on the knife for the user to assist with sharpening.
I swear I'm not being an apologist for anyone when I "agree" that "splitting the difference" (haha) or "splitting it down the middle" (haha) of the two extremes is totally harmless. As much as I talk about embracing asymmetry above, for the vast number of home cooks who receive a knife from Mark, starting with a 50/50 bevel and trying to match that for the first 10 years of ownership will probably have no noticeable effect on performance for these types of users, period. So who cares?
But for more discerning forum members and sharpeners, I think these things DO make noticeable differences, and I think understanding that the whole idea of 50/50 edges, grinds and bevels originated with Western marketing for customers much more than with Japanese makers is of relevance. Indeed, for me, this is one of the most obvious differences between a good Shun and a "bad" one, or a Global knife and a Konosuke: the traditional training of a smith is obvious when seeing the symmetry in the grind and how it is nuanced, and it is much, much less obvious when trying to work with or sharpen a low-tier Shun or Global, which DO borrow Western techniques in terms of grinds, etc.
The point being that although for a time I was a bit annoyed by some of Mark's page descriptions on this front, I no longer am. I see the point, and I also genuinely believe that he has "ordered" many of these knives to be 50/50, with the mutual understanding on both sides that the smith is still going to do what feels natural while also trying to match Mark's order (this is certainly the case with heat-treatment, too, where it is well-known that a smith will tell one seller a knife is 64 HRC and another that a similar knife is 61, because the smith is just making the knife as good as he can and "estimating" the number to be close enough to the range requested by the seller).
It is just a different way of doing work, I think, and not something to get too specific about—I obviously know that some smiths are insanely specific about heat-treatment numbers (such as Sukenari and the machine-treatments they do on ZDP), and I'm sure the same is true with grinds. But the MAJORITY of knives I've seen seem to follow the above model more...for now. New makers are continually edging more and more toward matching Western desires over and above their native training, it seems...
Kit, I don't remember you from the old forum, but you post so much and are so active that it is easy to assume you've been in the game for a while. But I think what Chip and I are referring to (if I can speak for him as well about this one thing) is that Mark's OLD webpages actually DIDN'T talk a lot of 50/50 grinds or bevels. It was actually something that a lot of customers were confused and frustrated by. Over time, he started marketing knives more and more as having "near" 50/50 grinds and bevels to alleviate sharpening concerns by new purchasers...and of course, since Mark is super honest, he also continually talked to the makers of these knives and REQUESTED 50/50 grinds and bevels, even though he is fully aware that in many cases, that means they do whatever they want with the grind but then put a 50/50 edge on the knife for the user to assist with sharpening.
I swear I'm not being an apologist for anyone when I "agree" that "splitting the difference" (haha) or "splitting it down the middle" (haha) of the two extremes is totally harmless. As much as I talk about embracing asymmetry above, for the vast number of home cooks who receive a knife from Mark, starting with a 50/50 bevel and trying to match that for the first 10 years of ownership will probably have no noticeable effect on performance for these types of users, period. So who cares?
But for more discerning forum members and sharpeners, I think these things DO make noticeable differences, and I think understanding that the whole idea of 50/50 edges, grinds and bevels originated with Western marketing for customers much more than with Japanese makers is of relevance. Indeed, for me, this is one of the most obvious differences between a good Shun and a "bad" one, or a Global knife and a Konosuke: the traditional training of a smith is obvious when seeing the symmetry in the grind and how it is nuanced, and it is much, much less obvious when trying to work with or sharpen a low-tier Shun or Global, which DO borrow Western techniques in terms of grinds, etc.
The point being that although for a time I was a bit annoyed by some of Mark's page descriptions on this front, I no longer am. I see the point, and I also genuinely believe that he has "ordered" many of these knives to be 50/50, with the mutual understanding on both sides that the smith is still going to do what feels natural while also trying to match Mark's order (this is certainly the case with heat-treatment, too, where it is well-known that a smith will tell one seller a knife is 64 HRC and another that a similar knife is 61, because the smith is just making the knife as good as he can and "estimating" the number to be close enough to the range requested by the seller).
It is just a different way of doing work, I think, and not something to get too specific about—I obviously know that some smiths are insanely specific about heat-treatment numbers (such as Sukenari and the machine-treatments they do on ZDP), and I'm sure the same is true with grinds. But the MAJORITY of knives I've seen seem to follow the above model more...for now. New makers are continually edging more and more toward matching Western desires over and above their native training, it seems...
~J
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
Comments: I'm short, a home cook, prefer lighter, thinner blades, and have tried dozens of brands over the years.
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Kit Craft
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Re: KS Asymetry
I think I had about 500 posts when we switched to this forum. I was not so active a poster there as I am here. But I have only been around kitchen knife forums in general since about late 2014. I have no idea about anything before that.
Regardless, I get what you are saying.
As for Mark ordering the knives one way vs another, I am sure of that too. It seems more than one vendor orders knives with a set of specifications directed to their customer base. Hell, in some case we can do that ourselves too. Mr. Watanabe will grind you a 50/50 knife if you ask, there is a custom up-charge though. But like you I don't really concern myself over knives symmetry at point of order anymore but also like you I was frustrated in the beginning.
On another note. There are some vendors that if you order the initial sharpening your edge will come about 90/10 even if it started as 50/50, lol, but that is another story. Which reminds me of the earlier mentioned topic of changing a righty knife to a lefty. Reversing symmetry at the edge on such an uneven grind seems like a recipe for disaster to me, at least over the lifetime of the knife. Maybe not so much if the knife is only slightly biased. But then, I could be wrong.
I am rambling now.
(Something I am good at.)
Regardless, I get what you are saying.
As for Mark ordering the knives one way vs another, I am sure of that too. It seems more than one vendor orders knives with a set of specifications directed to their customer base. Hell, in some case we can do that ourselves too. Mr. Watanabe will grind you a 50/50 knife if you ask, there is a custom up-charge though. But like you I don't really concern myself over knives symmetry at point of order anymore but also like you I was frustrated in the beginning.
On another note. There are some vendors that if you order the initial sharpening your edge will come about 90/10 even if it started as 50/50, lol, but that is another story. Which reminds me of the earlier mentioned topic of changing a righty knife to a lefty. Reversing symmetry at the edge on such an uneven grind seems like a recipe for disaster to me, at least over the lifetime of the knife. Maybe not so much if the knife is only slightly biased. But then, I could be wrong.
I am rambling now.
(Something I am good at.)