Henckels, Shapton Glass, Meara ...

[jbart65]

Last night I pulled out my new Shapton Glass 500 double-thick stone to sharpen a Henckel's International for a co-worker. This knife is a beast. About 9.7 ounces with a bolster so thick it could knock King Kong out cold. The knife even made me think of Popeye - bulging arms and chest and skinny legs. (That's not a good thing).

I asked my co-worker after he handed it to me: Your wife ever use this? No, never. When was the last time it was sharpened? I don't know.

You know the drill.

Anyway, I started with Atoma 140 to raise a burr. Took just a minute or so, which surprised me, and then another minute to clean up the edge. Onto the Shapton 500. Two minutes later and the Henckels was pretty darned sharp. I thought, hey, this isn't bad steel. A new formula?

Well, no. I looked it up. A mid-tier Henckels line. German steel, made in Spain.

Feeling pretty good, I moved on to my Kohetsu 800 and 2000. Figured I'd just need to do some edge-trailing strokes and a bit of stropping and I'd be done. After I finished I checked the edge ... and it felt ... not better. Maybe even worse.

Which brings me to my first question. Are Shapton Glass stones ideal, or great, with German knives. My Kohetsu stones are excellent, but the Glass 500 did a stellar job.

Unsatisfied, I went back to the 800, raised a tiny burr and did full sweeps on the 800 and 2000. This time the knife felt plenty sharp. Push cut paper easily. and while the edge didn't feel toothy, it felt crisp.

But then I had to go strop on balsa loaded with 1 micron paste. That seemed to round the edge and reduce the crispness.

Out of sheer exasperation, I pulled out my Meara jnat and ran the Henkels over it for a bit. Didnt think it would help much, but when I checked the edge again it was both crisp and toothy and cut bell peppers better than it had during any other part of sharpening routine.

And that leads to question No. 2. What happened with the Meara and the Henckels? I didn't think it would help.

I am still not satified with the Henckels edge. It is sharp by all my normal tests and it cuts soft stuff with grace now. But carrots? Still a bit of a chore. And the knife seems thick behind the edge even though I removed very little metal overall. I don't think it has been sharpened much, either.

Hence my final question: Why am I never satisfied with any edge I put on a non Japanese knife? I can get great edges sometimes on J knives, but never on a German one. Is it the knife - or partly me?

[Bensbites]

Ok, I know I am still learning my way around knives, grinds ect, but here is my take.

Cutting paper or pepper skin is a test of the sharp/toothy edge you put on the knife. Sounds like you nailed it. When you get to anything stiff you are now talking about the grind, not the edge. I assume the carrot would be better if you were testing a thinning job.

Ok pros, tell me where I am wrong.

[gladius]

Which brings me to my first question. Are Shapton Glass stones ideal, or great, with German knives. My Kohetsu stones are excellent, but the Glass 500 did a stellar job.

The SG stones are hard, fast, precise ceramic stones while the Kohetsu stone are somewhat not as aggressive and a little softer. Ideal for German knives?...I actually use diamond plates (400/1000) on German stainless and finish lightly on Shapton Pro 2k. The softer steel seems to respond better to harder stones; the Shapton pro stones are actually harder than the Glass stones.

Out of sheer exasperation, I pulled out my Meara jnat and ran the Henkels over it for a bit. Didnt think it would help much, but when I checked the edge again it was both crisp and toothy and cut bell peppers better than it had during any other part of sharpening routine.
And that leads to question No. 2. What happened with the Meara and the Henckels? I didn't think it would help.

The Meara is also a bit harder with good draw so forms a precise edge with a combination of grits (like all naturals) so you get that toothy/polished combination edge. You also reduced the finish from the 1 micron to 3-4 micron, more reasonable for the softer steel.

I am still not satified with the Henckels edge. It is sharp by all my normal tests and it cuts soft stuff with grace now. But carrots? Still a bit of a chore. And the knife seems thick behind the edge even though I removed very little metal overall. I don't think it has been sharpened much, either.

Hence my final question: Why am I never satisfied with any edge I put on a non Japanese knife? I can get great edges sometimes on J knives, but never on a German one. Is it the knife - or partly me?

It is the steel that is not as fine grained nor contains as much carbon - ref. https://youtu.be/0NX3enj_NT8?t=85
A sharp edge is also part of the cutting equation: edge and grind and profile and geometry and thinness where it counts work in combination.

[ken123]

Well here are my thoughts for what they are worth. Not being there makes this a bit of a conjecture.

Let's split this up by grits - coarse medium and fine grits and look at the results. Starting with coarse diamonds and a 500 grit stone, we not surprisingly get a rough toothy edge. Sharp yes but in a toothy sort of way. Then we go to a synthetic and loose some toothiness and, depending on technique possibly loose some precision as well.

On to midgrits 800 and 2k. A loss of more toothiness and possibly some edge profile degradation.

On to polishing with 1 micron strop on balsa. Assuming by your description that the edge was getting lost, this predictably rounded it off more. Jumping from a 2k stone (8 microns) to 1 micron, an 8x jump is just too big of a jump. More dullness.

Now off to the Meara. Now we are switching to a natural stone, so you would expect a different scratch pattern. I probably would have considered preceding it with an Aoto or possibly skipping the 2k and the paste finishing with either the Aoto or Meara I could be wrong but it's my best guess. And I would strop with a coarser more precise grit on a harder strop. I would try this both with and without the 800. I wouldn't attribute differences that much to the specific stones involved. Also going from a 140 to a 500 is a big jump too.

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Ken

[Kit Craft]

I am with gladius here, all the way.

I am not sure about the 2-8k jump being an issue (in general) as I do it all the time. But that could be a contributing factor with this steel in specific I guess. What I can say is the the cheap steel knives I sharpen for friends and family act much the same way. Sometimes I get lucky and find one that can handle a strop at 1-2 micron, but they don't hold it anyway. 1-3k is about where I stop. Could always strop on some 4 micron paste. Or simply on an unloaded strop.

[rüdiger]

my recommendation for the X50 Cr MoV 15 steel would be to stay on the sg500 and refine the edge with very low pressure (edge trailing). like "master the 1k" only with the sg500.
after that, just some edge leading strokes on the sg2k and then a bare leather strop (max.5 times each side). you even can skip the sg2k for this steel.

soft X50 Cr MoV 15 steel is in my experience not very good for high grit stones. this steel is made for quick and dirty sharpening and for steeling or sharpening rods. if you manage to bring this steel to high grit levels, the edge will not last.

this steel is a fantastic user, i can get super fast an toothy edge on it, which he will hold for a very, very long time, but it is no white nr. 2.

just my experience.

greetings from germany

[old onion]

my recommendation for the X50 Cr MoV 15 steel would be to stay on the sg500 and refine the edge with very low pressure (edge trailing). like "master the 1k" only with the sg500.
after that, just some edge leading strokes on the sg2k and then a bare leather strop (max.5 times each side). you even can skip the sg2k for this steel.

soft X50 Cr MoV 15 steel is in my experience not very good for high grit stones. this steel is made for quick and dirty sharpening and for steeling or sharpening rods. if you manage to bring this steel to high grit levels, the edge will not last.

this steel is a fantastic user, i can get super fast an toothy edge on it, which he will hold for a very, very long time, but it is no white nr. 2.

just my experience.

greetings from germany

rudiger,
Welcome and thanks for bringing along your experience.

[jbart65]

Thanks all for the advice, Gladius, Ken, Rudiger. I knew that stropping on the loaded balsa was a gamble, but I wanted to see what happened. Just took three strokes to round the edge.

I didn't know that going from a 140 to a 500 was a big jump. I don't like using my Cerax 320 for German knives because they take off a lot of stone. That's why I went straight to the 500.

I need a set of stones to handle Vics, Henckels, Wusthof and Global. I sharpen a lot of these for others. Don't mind spending the money on the stones. Gives me the chance to practice form and precision and, well, to keep sharp. My own J knives need very little work.

I know you like the diamond plates, Gladius, but I don't really like the feel of the Atoma. How do the 400 and 1000 diamond plates you use feel?

If I stick to stones for Euro knives, I was thinking Shapton Glass since I have a 500, and I already had the pros.

I have some Nubatamas and an Aono Aoto in my future, but I keep getting hammered with unanticipated expenses and drains on my cash flow. Last fall it was a new central AC unit. Now it's $4,000 in sudden and unexpected out of pocket dental costs. Seems somebody up there doesn't want me buying more knives and stones!

Got to get something soon, though. Don't want to wear out my Kohetsus and Cerax stones.

[Naples09]

I’m new to this but I spent time sharpening my German knives on the SP320 and SP2k. Then a few lite passes on the Rika 5k. It resulted in a pretty sharp edge compared to before (10 years of use never sharpened). The edge has lasted a little while with moderate use.

[Kit Craft]

Jeffry, I think you will like the Aono. And I really like it for cheap stainless too...Just saying. Totally feel you on the unexpected bills though. Tax season does not help either! No deductions for me...lol...I normally pay in. And no dental/vision so I know that story too. Adds up fast for just my wife and I. Can't imagine it gets easier having kids.

[gladius]

I need a set of stones to handle Vics, Henckels, Wusthof and Global. I sharpen a lot of these for others. Don't mind spending the money on the stones. I know you like the diamond plates, Gladius, but I don't really like the feel of the Atoma. How do the 400 and 1000 diamond plates you use feel? If I stick to stones for Euro knives, I was thinking Shapton Glass since I have a 500, and I already had the pros.

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For grinding metal on cheap knives it gets expensive using Atoma 140. I prefer using Zirconia for the coarse work: https://www.redlabelabrasives.com/colle ... ding-belts
Cut to size for a sanding block and grind away, they are extremely aggressive and less expensive than diamond plate or coarse water stones without the need to purchase other even coarser stones to flatten the fast wearing coarse stones, etc...

Once the bulk of the work is done with Zirconia I start with the diamond plates. 140, 400, 1000...
Sometimes I'll add a 220 in between depending on knife or just start there. I like Pink AO or Nubatama Black 220 which doesn't seem to wear as fast.
I use the $35 CKTG combo plate. << It does not feel as aggressive as the Atoma 140 but still is harsher than waterstone - I buffer them with natural stone mud (Aoto, Ikarashi, Monzen or Amakusa).

You could get by with Zirconia, 220, 1k or 2k for these type knives.

[rüdiger]

i have to correct myself, i meant edge trailing in my post above... sry

i like the jump from 140 to 500 for this steel. on this one is less more.

[rootbeersoup]

Why am I never satisfied with any edge I put on a non Japanese knife?

Personally, I don't bother sharpening german knives because I know the angle is different and I'm not going to be proficient with sharpening them. I could learn, but I don't use any german-style knives to begin with, so I don't bother.

[ken123]

Jeff, i do see an Aono Aoto in your future - a smaller one to stay in budget. A nice leadin to your Meara

My dentist took a bite out of me. I feel your pain.

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Ken