Limited liability, hold harmless agreements?

[Seattle_Ben]

Having taken my knives to, what I'm guessing is around ten places over years, be sharpened I can't recall ever having been given a hold harmless or limited liability agreement to sign. The quality of sharpening having ranged from letting a fellow shipmate put a razor's edge on a split bladed Spyderco folding knife (predictably ruined knife ensued and lesson learned) to having the guys at Epicurean Edge sharpen kitchen knives for me (also predictable but totally opposite result). For people who sharpen for others besides your immediate family do you use one or even have a chat with those whose knives are being handed over to you about possible risks of sharpening? Even if it's just something like a possible dropping of the knife in handing off or that the bent tip that you're about to try and fix may just break.

[J david]

I recall a recent situation where a very expensive knife was broken while being re-handled. I understand the handle handle maker made it right with the customer, or, at least I haven't heard otherwise. These are the vendors to do business with.

[ken123]

Tell them that as a sharpener the knives you get back are SHARP. Throw in a bandaid for emphasis.

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Ken

[nakneker]

Tell them that as a sharpener the knives you get back are SHARP. Throw in a bandaid for emphasis.

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Ken

Throwing in a bandaid, I like it.

[STPepper9]

You must give a lot of Band-Aids away Ken.

[Carter]

I researched it a little when I started making knives to sell. The general consensus is that no, you don't need a disclaimer. A knife is inherently a dangerous item if not handled appropriately or if an accident occurs. It is unlikely the courts will go after a knife maker (sharpener) if the customer cuts themselves. I am not sure what the corporate knife makers do....I don't recall getting a disclaimer with any of my EDC's or commercially made kitchen knives.

[Bensbites]

I researched it a little when I started making knives to sell. The general consensus is that no, you don't need a disclaimer. A knife is inherently a dangerous item if not handled appropriately or if an accident occurs. It is unlikely the courts will go after a knife maker (sharpener) if the customer cuts themselves. I am not sure what the corporate knife makers do....I don't recall getting a disclaimer with any of my EDC's or commercially made kitchen knives.

When I look at the OP, I think he is asking what if the fixed tip breaks or the shaper damages the knife. Did I not read it correctly?

[Carter]

I researched it a little when I started making knives to sell. The general consensus is that no, you don't need a disclaimer. A knife is inherently a dangerous item if not handled appropriately or if an accident occurs. It is unlikely the courts will go after a knife maker (sharpener) if the customer cuts themselves. I am not sure what the corporate knife makers do....I don't recall getting a disclaimer with any of my EDC's or commercially made kitchen knives.

When I look at the OP, I think he is asking what if the fixed tip breaks or the shaper damages the knife. Did I not read it correctly?

Think you're right Ben.....maybe got a little off topic, with my response, but I think Ken started going off topic with the Band-Aids, so I am going to follow his lead and blame him...

[Lepus]

I think both are good questions.

I personally would not sign any such paperwork to have someone work on a high end knife. I know what can and can't be done and I would not ask the impossible. I get the impression the same can usually be said of other people asking for that work. Hobbyists tend to prefer to be informed. If someone breaks a knife through error rather than a manufacturing defect, that needs to be on them.

I would as a sharpener make the risk of some procedures clear. When I fix a tip I tell the owner that a badly bent tip is already gone, we just haven't gotten to the formality of amputation. If I can save it after that, great, what a wonderful surprise. That sort of thing needs to be discussed in writing and I would be comfortable walking into small claims court with that at my back. As always, email is best to keep a written record.

As always, when dealing with the property of others, it's important to recognize their rights because they sure as hell will. In the event a sharpener detects what he feels to be a reparable issue not previously discussed he needs to contact the client to ensure the client wants repair attempted.

That all just boils down to being open and communicating well. I don't think that's a high bar in this arena.

Edit: On further thought, if I had an opening sharpening store and wasn't just conducting business online, like say Epicurean Edge or Korin, I would want to find a way to place a disclaimer to prevent a he-said-she-said scenario because the more I think about it the more plausibly unpleasant this scenario sounds. I'd at least post it and probably put it on the receipt. I would definitely talk about it.

[Bensbites]

I do enough handles I have thought about this, a lot. If I break it I buy it.

My nightmare senecio is that a blade arrives to me in different condition than the owner says. I always take arrival photos when I knife comes in and as many final photos as I can, all are shared with the client immediately. 98% of problems are due to poor communication, I guess i error on the side of over communication.

[ken123]

In person, i warn them that I am not concerned with them cutting skin, but also tendons

I never got a disclaimer for my buffer, chainsaws, tablesaws, band saws etc.

I do make a point of examining a knife and communicating about it with the client before proceeding. Clear commumication is critical..

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Ken

[ken123]

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Ken

[HectorFuego]

I only sharpen for family members, but I once gave a tube of Super Glue back with the sharpened knife. I also make a little edge guard from 100 # card stock.

As a Christmas present I gave my daughter a Yahiko VG-10 210 mm gyuto. Great value in a knife, btw, but after nearly 4 months it needed some love so she gave it to me to sharpen. She also had a small stamped mono-steel Chicago Cutlery cleaver on her knife rack, which looked like it had been used to cut coax cable. I offered to sharpen it, too. The gyuto was a snap. A few strokes on the Red Brick, then a 2000 grit Kohetsu stone, and a quick strop was all it needed.

The cleaver, not so easy. I started with the coarsest thing I had which was a 400 grit diamond plate. I began with 24 strokes on each side and dropped down by 2 each pass. After finishing that, I had to go back and work it some more to get a consistent burr. (Imagine sharpening a steel ping-pong paddle.) Then the same thing on a 1000 grit diamond plate. Then some work on a 1000 stone that's pretty aggressive. The final stone was the good old Red Brick. I then finished with the leather strop. Now it's extremely sharp, although that soft steel won't stay that way for long. It was actually kinda fun. If it had been Aogami Super Steel it would NOT have been fun.

She will get a verbal warning when she picks them up. Note that when I gave her the gyuto she got a written warning which included the instruction, "If you drop it, let it fall. Trying to catch it, is a trip to the emergency room."

Hector

[Jeff B]

But what if you are buffing a knife and it is slung through your foot and hits the floor below and the tip breaks off, are you liable for fixing the tip?

[ken123]

But what if you are buffing a knife and it is slung through your foot and hits the floor below and the tip breaks off, are you liable for fixing the tip?

Don't know. Never happened to me, but if it did, fix the tip

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Ken

[Seattle_Ben]

I researched it a little when I started making knives to sell. The general consensus is that no, you don't need a disclaimer. A knife is inherently a dangerous item if not handled appropriately or if an accident occurs. It is unlikely the courts will go after a knife maker (sharpener) if the customer cuts themselves. I am not sure what the corporate knife makers do....I don't recall getting a disclaimer with any of my EDC's or commercially made kitchen knives.

When I look at the OP, I think he is asking what if the fixed tip breaks or the shaper damages the knife. Did I not read it correctly?

This is more correct though I was looking to see what if anything people did to protect themselves legally both in handling others equipment and in handing back extra sharp items. It had only really occurred to me recently as I started thinking about how I really couldn't recall having been made to sign one. It's becoming pretty clear that people are not doing this. Just a bit of observation coupled with curiosity.

[ken123]

Rarely, I do get requests to make my edges duller Mostly from people reselling their knives to customers with little experience.

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Ken

[Chefcallari]

Lol hey Mark


I didn't get a disclaimer with my Richmond BD1N 210 gyuto you sold me this last Christmas...

5 days ago i sliced the entire tip of my pinky off... Through the very tip of the bone...
5 stiches....
Doctor said it looked "surgical" lol
Love that knife lol



Oh wait.... I sharpened it... Damn it lol

[Gregory27]

Rarely, I do get requests to make my edges duller Mostly from people reselling their knives to customers with little experience.

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Ken

What would you do then? Do you even know how to make a knife duller? Because I just assume that even if you beat a knife to hell on the sidewalk, it somehow winds up sharper than when you started.

[ken123]

Rarely, I do get requests to make my edges duller Mostly from people reselling their knives to customers with little experience.

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Ken

What would you do then? Do you even know how to make a knife duller? Because I just assume that even if you beat a knife to hell on the sidewalk, it somehow winds up sharper than when you started.

Well making it duller doesn't mean making it dull, but rather less sharp. In one particular case a Hattori KD had a 5 degree per side edge - what the client wanted. I had warned him that it might not hold up even cutting through paper, but it did hold. In this case I put a microbevel on the edge of 15 dps but refined the edge to a higher grit level to make a more robust edge.

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Ken