Cerax vs Rika?

[Horizonson]

I see Suehiro offers the Cerax in 3k, 6k & 8k... and also offers them in Rika 3k, (5k), 6k & 8k...

What are the differences between the two product lines?

Does anyone have first hand experience with both?

TIA!

P.S. As in all things in life; the more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.

[Gregory27]

I have no experience with the Cerax, but I just got the Rika 5k. I love it. Compared with my Shapton 5k, it has great feedback and, possibly, works faster. I'm winding up with some of the best edges I've ever gotten coming off of the Rika.

[Horizonson]

I am particularly interested in the 3k and 8k comparisons

[Kit Craft]

Cerax stones, in general, seem slightly harder than the traditional line stones such as the Rika, Kouga, Shiramine and W8 (Rika 3k, 5k, 6k and 8k). In fact, more dense might even be the proper way to put it. Slightly less porous and give more of bright finish as opposed to a more foggy finish (on cladding). Where the traditional line stones excel, to me, is in how they feel in use, produce mud and finish a knife cosmetically. A good marriage between the two stone types is the Debado line but they come at a higher price point because of this. All of these products I would consider soakers but the traditional line takes the most soaking and if memory serves the Cerax the least but it has been awhile since using the whole cerax line. The debados , once again, fall somewhere in the middle. And while you didn't ask about them, I think they are worth consideration. In terms of feedback I find all suehiro products to be in the same ball park even if not identical, assuming similar range of abrasive.

Having said that, if what you are looking for is a well finished edge, you can simply go the cheaper route of all the Suehiro options and get more than satisfactory results. Beyond that you are looking for something tailored to a specific subset of sharpening such as cosmetic finishing, feel in use, or particular edge types for particular knives and specialty uses but even these things can be manipulated from stone to stone by the user.

The thing is, if you look at reviews of the same stone by different users you will notice how the stone reacts differently depending on the parameters on which they are gauged. I use moderate pressure constantly for much of my sharpening and I don't like to flush stones and thus end up with tons of viscus mud. Others who use heavy pressure end up with loads of metal in their water and thus inky swarf and others still flush their stones etc, etc, etc.

What is it that you are looking for in a stone?

PS:

I will add that I have not used every stone from each of these lines and particularly not above 6k as that does not tickle my fancy but have a fair idea of how these stone lines work as a whole. If I could pick one Suehiro stone from each range it would probably be the Cerax 320, Debado 1k and rika 5k.

[Horizonson]

Gregory; thank you for your response.

Kit. Your insight is much appreciated.

Being new to free-hand sharpening on stones (for the most part), it is difficult for me to answer most questions. Being as I have no point of reference.

I just got done putting together a Frankenstein Set of stones; and will be cutting my teeth on them.

1. Nubatama Bamboo 150
2. Suehiro Cerax 320
3. Naniwa Chosera 800
4. Naniwa 2k GBofJ
5. Suehiro Rika 5k
6. Imanishi Kitayama 8k

I've read/learned a few things since ordering these stones. I don't have buyer's remorse. But wish I had stuck with one type set for all but the Nubatama 150.

Over time; I'm most likely to build a Splash & Go set. Such as the ol' Choseras in 400, 800, 3k & Snow White. Or abandon the 800 I have and go full New Debado

In addition; I'll want a Soaker Set. Something "reliable and true", not fussy, and gives this noob some consistently repeatable results (pending human error).

I'm thinking the GBofJ, Rika and Kitayama will definitely give me the "opportunity" to play with mud (whether I want to or not, LOL).

I honestly will probably not even hardly touch the Kitayama for a few months. At least, not until I become comfortable with the GBofJ and Rika.

[Horizonson]

Don't laugh... But I have only used the 800, thus far. And only once.

I'll be a "weekend sharpener" for the most part... and my weekends will be busy for the next month or two.

I hope to toss together a wood "sink bridge" pretty quick here, and get to playing

Reason for wanting two sets.

The Splash & Go would be intended for mid-week touch ups. Or for bringing to a friend's/family's house.

The Soaker Set would be for weekend Zen sessions of my household cutlery.

[Horizonson]

I have several knives, from folders to belt to kitchen, in several different steels. I don't believe any are higher than 59~61 HRC.

BUT! I WILL be slowly acquiring a few Japanese knives in the future. Probably not until sometime next year

[ChefKnivesToGo]

2, 4 and 5 would make a good set for kitchen knives.

I love my Rika 5k. Use it at home to finish most of my knives.

[Kit Craft]

You are going all out from the get-go, I see. Well, you surely will develop a preference. I love sharpening and trying new stones but at the end of the day I typically come back to the same stones. What those stones are really is unimportant as they are suited entirely to my needs, preferences and quirks. I do have a "get things done" set and a "I want to feel all zen" set and sets between that.

Anyway, you have quite a list of well liked stones there. Learn everything about each one of those stones before moving on to new ones. What you like, what you don't like, what works even if you don't like it etc and judge upgrading, if you feel the need, on that. On your list the only stone I don't care for is the green brick but I think I am in the minority on that one. Regardless, it is good for some things and does those things well. As for the two 8k stones you mention, realize that the Kit 8k and the SW8k are very, very different stones. Neither are what I would consider forgiving but for opposite reasons. One is soft and spongy and many gouge it while the other is hard and prone to wiping your slate clean if you go over your angle by even the slightest hair.

Anyway, grab two stones from that list, if you haven't already, and start from there. Were it me and I were limited to that list my first two stones would be the Chosera 800 and the Rika 5k.

As to what you were saying about playing with the mud, maybe. They Kitayama is not muddy for every situation and more often than not if you are simply sharpening the edge of the edge and particularly on touchups, you will get no mud at all. Me, I am a thin behind the edge every time I sharpen kind of guy, thus mud. There are, however, stones that bleed mud when you look at them (synthetic akamonzen-to).

A word about splash and go. Many splash and go stones below about 1000 grit will still absorb water, even if slowly, which means they will hold water too. This is important to note when drying them out. I find that if they take in water slowly, the give it up slowly too. This is why I think some folks have issues with cracking. Because the stones are left to dry and they do so too quickly. Maybe in a room with a high temp and low humidity or in sunlight, even if indirectly. Point is, be careful with stones that are "Splash and go" but not quite. Not to scare you away from them as I have had more than one type of stone noted to crack and have never had issues, yet.

Jumping in with both feet can be fun, I did that, but it can be overwhelming if you let it as well.

[Horizonson]

Thank you, Kit, for taking the time to respond

Over the next season or two, I plan to play with all the stones. Eventually even the Kitayama, maybe.

I don't think I had even received the Kitayama in the mail yet, when I realised I probably had no business acquiring anything above 3~5k for a while. Your statement regarding them, further supports what my concerns have become. But that's okay. It'll be there when I am feeling adventurous

I know you mentioned the Chosera 800 and Rika 5k as two stones to start with (from those that I have); but... I was thinking of setting aside the Rika and Kitayama for now, and focusing on the others. Until I am well acquainted with them.

[Kit Craft]

Nothing wrong with that either. And depending on what you are going to sharpen, the lower grit stones might see more attention.

Have fun discovering stones.

[Horizonson]

The goal is to become well acquainted with the lower grit stones, first.

My thinking is... No point in finer grit stones, if I'm not doing things right on the coarser stones.

[Horizonson]

.....A word about splash and go. Many splash and go stones below about 1000 grit will still absorb water, even if slowly, which means they will hold water too. This is important to note when drying them out. I find that if they take in water slowly, they give it up slowly too. This is why I think some folks have issues with cracking. Because the stones are left to dry and they do so too quickly. Maybe in a room with a high temp and low humidity or in sunlight, even if indirectly. Point is, be careful with stones that are "Splash and go" but not quite. Not to scare you away from them as I have had more than one type of stone noted to crack and have never had issues, yet.....

I live right on the coast of the PNW (Southern Oregon). Things don't dry out here.

I can permasoak my stones just by leaving them out on a drying rack

My biggest concern is mold/fungal growth Maybe I'll work up a batch of silver colloid, and soak my stones in that? The downside is, doing so will probably discolor the stones

[lsboogy]

I live in the place with the highest dew points ever recorded in the USA (Minnesota) and some of the lowest. Never had a problem with fungal/mold growth in 30 years of using stones here. Just leave them out to dry (out of the sun and let them air dry for a few days) - never had a stone crack from drying this way.

Just get a couple stones and try them - find out if you like splash and go or soak, hard or soft, and what grits work for you. Sharpening is personal - I like soft, muddy stones (no splash and go stuff for me) but many like hard splash and go stuff (Shaptons etc). I use a 1K or 1200 to set edge (might be 20 minutes of there are small chips - rare for me) and then go right to a 6K stone most of the time. I have been trying a "Green Brick of Joy" 2K stone lately - absolutely love the thing - and am now on a new 6K platininum stone from ken123 that is the best medium/ high grit stone I have ever had (give him a call - he will set you straight and get you set up with great stones) - sharpening is personal, find what cha like and learn. I'm still learning what gives me a great edge - don't spend too much time thinking about what to buy as you tastes will change with time and experience, and stones are cheap and last lifetimes for most of us.

[Horizonson]

Just got done using the Cerax 320 and Chosera 800, after flattening them with the Bamboo 150 (don't tell Ken! )

I fudged a temp setup on the kitchen counter. It wasn't pretty, issues presented themselves, but I managed. (Need the right length screws to put some wood together for my service food tray I bought )

The Cerax 320 started to cough up quite a bit of mud! Used a 15deg wedge to see where that put the knife, and discovered that is right about where I naturally want to angle the blade. Thought that was rather convenient

Not sure why; but I felt "nervous", LOLz

I did, indeed, put an offset bevel... I think Not intentionally. I need to learn to work both sides, before reaching the apex, when reprofiling is involved.

I'm looking forward to learning more and more with each session

I readily popped hairs off my arm, after stropping on roughed leather loaded with green compound. So the knife is WAAAY sharper than before I began = success

[Horizonson]

I live in the place with the highest dew points ever recorded in the USA (Minnesota) and some of the lowest. Never had a problem with fungal/mold growth in 30 years of using stones here. Just leave them out to dry (out of the sun and let them air dry for a few days) - never had a stone crack from drying this way.....

I hope that holds true for me, here!

Even plastic molds here!

People don't get tans here. They just form a patina over time.

They are on theirs sides, drying out on the counter

[jbart65]

The Cerax 320 is indeed muddy and somewhat softer than I expected, though it does a good job. I don't use it for knives that need a ton of low-grit work, however. German knives really wear it out. It's best for Japanese knives that need just moderate repair at the start of a full progression.

My usual progression is the 320, 800 Kohetsu, 2000 Kohetsu and 6,000 Cerax. The Kohetsus I believe are made by Suehiro.

At any rate, I am a big fan of the Cerax 6000. It's hard, but not painfully so. I like it better than the softer Rika 5000, which just didn't give me quite the edge I was seeking. It seems closer to 4K grit than 5K. A very good stone with a lot of fans, but not for me.

[Kit Craft]

I live in the place with the highest dew points ever recorded in the USA (Minnesota) and some of the lowest. Never had a problem with fungal/mold growth in 30 years of using stones here. Just leave them out to dry (out of the sun and let them air dry for a few days) - never had a stone crack from drying this way.

Just get a couple stones and try them - find out if you like splash and go or soak, hard or soft, and what grits work for you. Sharpening is personal - I like soft, muddy stones (no splash and go stuff for me) but many like hard splash and go stuff (Shaptons etc). I use a 1K or 1200 to set edge (might be 20 minutes of there are small chips - rare for me) and then go right to a 6K stone most of the time. I have been trying a "Green Brick of Joy" 2K stone lately - absolutely love the thing - and am now on a new 6K platininum stone from ken123 that is the best medium/ high grit stone I have ever had (give him a call - he will set you straight and get you set up with great stones) - sharpening is personal, find what cha like and learn. I'm still learning what gives me a great edge - don't spend too much time thinking about what to buy as you tastes will change with time and experience, and stones are cheap and last lifetimes for most of us.

Growth is an issue when the stone is thought to be dry and stored in the box, for example. I have had this happen. Stones like the pink brick, for example, do not fully dry out in a few days. Learned my lesson early on with that one.

As for cracking, as I said, never an issue for me but it is a common report with particular splash and go stones, unfortunately. Seems hit or miss for many.

[ChefKnivesToGo]

I throw out my stone boxes. We should do a separate thread about how people store their stones.

[jacko9]

I agree with a separate thread since I made the mistake of storing semi dry stones in a cardboard box with bad results.