The edge is good, but not great. Please help.

[DeLos]

I am just getting into sharpening and have two Cerax stones, 320 & 1000. I live in a communal house (I'm a member of a religious community) and the house knives were of good quality (forged Wusthof and Zwilling) but completely dull. I set a new bevel with the 320, then a couple of passes on the 1000, and finished with a strop with green honing compound. The knives (three 8 inch chef's knives) have gone from completely dull to easily slicing onions. I can go through copy paper pretty easily too. But they are still not super-sharp. Very usable but not as sharp as I was hoping. I realize my technique needs work, I'm new. But would a 3000 or 5000 give a better edge, or will they merely polish the edge? Thanks for the advice.

[Gregory27]

Keep working on your 1000 stone. A higher grit stone won't get an imperfect edge sharper, it'll just be a shinier imperfect edge. Keep working on maintaining a consistent angle, slowly reducing pressure. You should see better and better results over time. Once that improvement slows, then its time for a higher grit stone.

One other thing to consider is that with your knives, they really shouldn't be as screaming sharp as a good Japanese knife. Those softer steel knives just won't hold that steep of a bevel. Also, you really don't need a terribly much higher grit stone with those knives. Lots of people, myself included, stop at a 2k stone for "Western" knives, and maintain with a steel.

[jmcnelly85]

A game changer for me was trying to pass as many edge quality tests with my coarsest stone. Easily cutting through a rolled up paper towel after the 320 ensuring it’s just as easy at the heel, tip, belly, and sweet spot would be my goal before spending time on the 1k.

Awesome work getting them sharper than before. Completely dull, neglected knives can be a difficult task. There’s a chance the knives require thinning. Removing metal behind the edge will increase the perception of sharpness as well as fluidity through product. Thinning can be time consuming, but having knives that perform better than new is a pretty rewarding experience.

[ChefKnivesToGo]

Hello DeLos,

If you can slice paper my guess is you are doing a good job sharpening the edges. I suspect the reason your knives still won’t cut food as well as you would like is that you knives need some thinning behind the edge. German knives are usually thick and that thickness provides resistance when cutting say an onion or a carrot. Thinning the knife will remove some of that resistance and make it cut better.

[Peter Nowlan]

As Gregory mentioned, don’t think of higher grit stones as an answer to sharpening problems, not that I think you have any. You’re doing fine, get the knives as sharp as you possibly can on the 320, and I mean as sharp as you’ve ever seen the knives. It takes patience and diligence. Then and only then move on to the 1k stone. Your new....when I was new the knives were duller when I was finished. It takes time to develop and strengthen your technique, just keep at it.

This person is new to sharpening so thinning is not the answer.

The door to Truly sharp knives is only opened by a strong understanding of the fundamentals and good, practiced technique. Manage your expectations and just keep doing what your doing.

[ken123]

Welcome to the forum!

Let me make several comments. Your knives are of modest quality, so the fastest shortcut to better edges would be to start with somewhat better knives. Can you get your current knives sharper with your existing equipment? Yes. Before getting into better knives, let's work with your current knives. Can you get better edges past 1k? Yes. A 3k edge will be an improvement in many instances. Some sharpeners jump from a 1k to a 6k. I don't recommend this much of a jump. Thinning your knife? Admittedly this is a bit more advanced and will give you more performance but it will also yield an edge more easily prone to damage. Save this for a bit later. Refining your technique? - definitely. All agree. But how?

Let me emphasize a comment Peter often makes - less pressure! Less pressure reduces burr formation and is to be used often. Burr reduction should be done using light lateral pressure.

Typically knives like you are using don't respond all that well past about 2k or so, but you can get some more performance using natural stone edges. Increased edge longevity and function exceeding a 2k synthetic edge. This is a bit more advanced and best discussed later. It is certainly different from just further polishing an edge. A more refined edge without precision is a waste of effort.

"Refining your technique? - definitely. All agree. But how?"

Improving the precision of EACH stroke. If your angle variation is +/- a few degrees, this will limit performance. Thus you need to be precise even at your lowest grits. As your angles get more acute, this precision assumes increasing performance. sharpening at 20 degrees per side with an angular variation of 2 or 3 degrees is OK. At 5 degrees, this precision level is a disaster.

Chromium oxide? This is a waste of time for you. Most Chromium oxide is very poorly formulated with grits from 3000 or so on up depending on the vendor. There are much better choices. A 1k stone is typically 16 microns and your Chromium oxide is typically much finer but inconsistent. Go with something like 4 micron CBN emulsion as a next step past a 1k stone.

Use a sharpie to evaluate your edges. Better yet use magnification with it typically a 10x loupe or so.

Setup a good light source. Better light helps you see what you are doing - clearer scratch patterns etc.

This is a good start. Keep at it and come back with more questions!

---
Ken

[dAviD]

Maybe helpful??
Or at least my two sense for what it's worth.......

I have to mantain cheap stainless knives at work as long as possible because the owner will not buy more than they have to.......
(That by the way is a whole other discussion..lol)

And they are probably cheaper than the ones you have.
I have a 150 grit (for the absolute worst work), a 400 grit and a 1k to do all the heavy lifting.
I don't bother going any higher just because I don't know if I'm going to have to put a new tip on it next week or someone's going to do something stupid and chop without a cutting board...etc.etc.etc....

The sharpy trick is super helpful for that even though I know I can put a hella of an edge on better steel
.
There is different schools of sharpening so it speak.
I personally on cheaper knives use longer strokes (full edge length) and mental focus more pressure on a stropping motion more than pushing the edge particularly in the lower grits.
The sharpy and counting strokes helps make sure I reach an even Apex to work with.

Start with 9 Stokes on each side.
1-3 hard pressure, slow. even.
check the sharpy to see what's removed on each stroke and adjust as needed.
If need be, do a measurement of three fingers and push the edge across the stone, shift and repeat across the whole edge.
Wiping front to back so to speak.....(it's how I train my line cooks.....sorry )

4-6 medium...ish pressure.
I focus on moving the slurry on the stone evenly from one end to another. But, I still use some force and focus.

7-9 glancing and ice skating.
You should be able to easily push the mud around from one end to the other in a clean motion. Easy does it! Sometimes this alone removes a good part of the Burr.

Clean up the knife.
Check the edge in good light.
See if you catch a wire edge Burr or if you can't. Look over the sharpy markings.

I normally will do a few passes at a slightly more acute angle
(very slight)
on either the stone or mostly a leather stropping kit I got from mark and test again. A leather belt works too! Or newspaper or....
Basically the idea is to remove any of the wire burr that fools people into thinking they have a sharp knife but really they're cutting on the finest edge of Steel that should have been removed. It's more common than you think.
Some of my guys sharpen their own knives and their whole edge is a wire burr.
rinse and repeat if needed!

At 400 grit I should, with the cheap crappy stainless, get a clean pull through magazine stock (or newspaper) with the sound of tearing but not the feel (does that make sense to anyone else?).
Pull slow enough to feel it "catch". If it catches mark it with the sharpy and start again focusing on that spot.

Good light will help you especially at a lower grit because it will allow you to see the Burr and the work you have done.

A few passes on the 1k if everything is perfect might work......
if it's perfect to begin with.
But I normally I spend time using light pressure and plenty of mud to really work on that edge.
I'll clean and dry it completely, and then strop it again, check it up close and even add another round with the sharpy and the 1k.
Of course I'm constantly cutting through my test medium to see where my edges are and where my bad spots are.

Using a good testing medium and always using the same medium helped me. I know some people only use real food........
But I'm not wasting onions when I have to sharpen 20+ knives a week. So for me any cheap newsprint works.

Sorry for the quick post, I'm at work right now beating a knife into shape for the busy weekend here because of ACL so I needed to chime in...lol.

I'll clean up the post when I get a chance.
Sharping is a meditation!
So put some time aside, put something to listen to on and don't stress about it to much.

[Jeff B]

As Gregory mentioned, don’t think of higher grit stones as an answer to sharpening problems, not that I think you have any. You’re doing fine, get the knives as sharp as you possibly can on the 320, and I mean as sharp as you’ve ever seen the knives....

Best advice you'll ever get when it comes to sharpening. If your knives aren't sharp coming off your lowest grit your higher grits won't fix that. Been my mantra for a very long time.
1k is fine to stop at for soft german steel. I'd strop with just bare leather too, compounds are a waste of time and money on those knives.

[DeLos]

Thank you all for the advice. I'll stick with my 320 and 1000 a couple of months. Luckily, I have a drawer full (yep, thrown in a drawer) of dull knives to practice on. All of them are softer steels and stepping up to a 3000 wouldn't fix a whole lot, if anything. I don't quite yet fully get the concept of thinning, but some of the knives are new-ish and shouldn't need it. Today I'm sharpening dull a Victorinox Forschner boning knife. I am going to take my time and see how sharp I can get it on the 320. Thanks again!

[Drewski]

If you are going to be practicing lots, your stones will eventually start to dish and you need to flatten them. Lots of us use the cktg flattening plate, really good value. Hopefully back in stock soon.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/140grdistflp.html

Here is a recent discussion about flattening as well:

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vi ... f=4&t=7183

[Jeff B]

If you are going to be practicing lots, your stones will eventually start to dish and you need to flatten them. Lots of us use the cktg flattening plate, really good value. Hopefully back in stock soon.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/140grdistflp.html

Here is a recent discussion about flattening as well:

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vi ... f=4&t=7183

Very good reminder Drew not to be overlooked.

[ChefKnivesToGo]

If you are going to be practicing lots, your stones will eventually start to dish and you need to flatten them. Lots of us use the cktg flattening plate, really good value. Hopefully back in stock soon.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/140grdistflp.html

Here is a recent discussion about flattening as well:

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vi ... f=4&t=7183

I made a mistake and neglected to order them in time so it's going to be at least a month before they arrive.

I do have the 80s available: https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ck80grdipl.html

[Gregory27]

If you are going to be practicing lots, your stones will eventually start to dish and you need to flatten them. Lots of us use the cktg flattening plate, really good value. Hopefully back in stock soon.

https://www.chefknivestogo.com/140grdistflp.html

Here is a recent discussion about flattening as well:

https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vi ... f=4&t=7183

I made a mistake and neglected to order them in time so it's going to be at least a month before they arrive.

I do have the 80s available: https://www.chefknivestogo.com/ck80grdipl.html

One could always flatten on the sidewalk too.

Don't let Ken see that I said that...

[Jeff B]

One could always flatten on the sidewalk too.

Don't let Ken see that I said that...

A nice flat surface with wet/dry sandpaper works in a pinch.

[lsboogy]

I learned to flatten in the front steps in Japan - did it for years till I got a flattening plate from Mark - now I don't need to worry about the weather. Get a flattening plate - they are cheap (at 40 bucks and lasting 15 years they cost $3.50 a year - skip the espresso one morning a year).

[ChefKnivesToGo]

One could always flatten on the sidewalk too.

Don't let Ken see that I said that...

A nice flat surface with wet/dry sandpaper works in a pinch.

Over the short run this is an excellent and cheap way to get your stones good and flat.