New to sharpening advices

[tizianca]

Hello everyone,
I'm about to get my first stone, a Cerax 1k/6k to get started with stone sharpening and to sharpen my first carbon steel knife (Anryu Blue #2 Gyuto 210).

Now i have a Shun wasabi Santoku, wich is tempered at 58 HRC and many Swibo knives rated 55-58 HRC.
Does this combination of stones work?

I have the tendency to use the steel a lot on my Swibos, and i'v always gotten good results with that, but i've read that it's not good for jknives so i was thinking about getting a strop set.

What would you guys suggest? Also how often do i need to strop my knives in order to keep the edge ( instead of using the steel)? Paste or no paste?

Thank you
Tiziano

[Radar53]

Hi there tiz and welcome to the forum.

I have wanted to get the Anryu B#2 since I first found CKTG in 2014 and I'm excited that it's now due at any tick of the clock.

In terms of a first stone the Cerax 1/6k combo will work fine with the knives you talk about. If you haven't actually bought it as yet, give some consideration to the Cerax 1/3k combo. I have this stone and like it a lot as a one & done unit.

If you haven't already you will need to think of a way to flatten & keep your stone(s) flat. According to other forumites, this https://www.chefknivestogo.com/140grdistflp.html is a very good and cost effective option.

I wouldn't use the steel on your Japanese knives - just use your stones or strops. In terms of strops you don't need to go flash & costly. I use newsprint on a planed piece of wood often as a first up - you can also use denim here. I also have & use bovine & kangaroo leather strops, both off the stones & for touch-ups I'm probably a bit different, than a lot of very experienced sharpeners here, in that I use my strops bare and don't use compounds - so take that for what it's worth, YMMV.

In terms of how often to touch up an edge by stropping, I do it just once I feel the edge lose it's bite. Strop it a few strokes on either side until the edge returns. Once this doesn't return the edge, then it's time to go back to the finest stone you used on that edge and use that dry as a "strop" with VERY light strokes. Once that doesn't return your edge then maybe give it a total refresh on the stones.

Just my thoughts and I hope that other experienced sharpeners pitch in here with other ideas for you to consider.

Let us know what you decide and how you get on.

[tizianca]

Hi there tiz and welcome to the forum.

I have wanted to get the Anryu B#2 since I first found CKTG in 2014 and I'm excited that it's now due at any tick of the clock.

In terms of a first stone the Cerax 1/6k combo will work fine with the knives you talk about. If you haven't actually bought it as yet, give some consideration to the Cerax 1/3k combo. I have this stone and like it a lot as a one & done unit.

If you haven't already you will need to think of a way to flatten & keep your stone(s) flat. According to other forumites, this https://www.chefknivestogo.com/140grdistflp.html is a very good and cost effective option.

I wouldn't use the steel on your Japanese knives - just use your stones or strops. In terms of strops you don't need to go flash & costly. I use newsprint on a planed piece of wood often as a first up - you can also use denim here. I also have & use bovine & kangaroo leather strops, both off the stones & for touch-ups I'm probably a bit different, than a lot of very experienced sharpeners here, in that I use my strops bare and don't use compounds - so take that for what it's worth, YMMV.

In terms of how often to touch up an edge by stropping, I do it just once I feel the edge lose it's bite. Strop it a few strokes on either side until the edge returns. Once this doesn't return the edge, then it's time to go back to the finest stone you used on that edge and use that dry as a "strop" with VERY light strokes. Once that doesn't return your edge then maybe give it a total refresh on the stones.

Just my thoughts and I hope that other experienced sharpeners pitch in here with other ideas for you to consider.

Let us know what you decide and how you get on.

Thank you for the response, sorry if i'm a bit slow answering, but school is killing me...

Anyways, i still haven't bought anything... I'm form Switzerland, so i make a big order to save on shipping.

I thought about the 1k/3k, but i've seen many people use higher grit stones on hard knives, the Anryu isn't extremely hard, but it's given at 62+ which is pretty hard and i've read that if you work on pressure, the step between 1k and 3k is unnoticeable, correct me if i'm wrong.

I was asking because i read that with soft steel, it's hard to get a really polished finish with a 6k, but i don't want to sacrifice the polish on my "good Anryu"... that's why i picked the 1k/6k, i'd rather work on pressure on my cheap knives and be able to get the most out of my jknive.
Maybe 1k and then with the steel (I have a professional Victorinox Butcher Oval Steel, so not a cheap one from a knife set) on my Swibos, will be fine, what do you think of that?

For the stropping, i was thinking about the scrap leather sold on CKTG, with a 1 micron and maybe a 0.5 micron, because i've read that the 1 micron compares to the 8000 grit stone, so in my mind was a way to have a "cheap" progression to get it razor sharp, but if you guys consider it useless i'll just save some money .

Thank you in advance

[Kit Craft]

A lot of the discussion about what one can get out of a stone comes down to how they use the stone. Ie: how much pressure they use, how often they work the edge, leading vs trailing vs both and so many other factors. As for seeing a difference from 1-3 vs 1-6, if one works the 6k long enough, sure. Or getting as much as you can out of the 3k with reduced pressure to almost nothing. Etc. However, I agree with Grant. Personally, I find a 3k to be more versatile in the long run as opposed to a 6k. In that I can do touch-ups much, much longer on a 3k before finally having to drop back to a 1k, or lower, and "resetting" the bevel. But again, your style of sharpening comes into play as well.

Going back to the perceptible differences between stones. I would notice the step between 1k and 3k much more than the step between 3k and 6k. 1 to 6k is a different thing entirely.

As or polish from a 6k+, that will also depend on a number of factors. I like suehiro stones and I don't find even their 8k stones to remove too much bite. However, I do find that I prefer the 3 and 5k iterations of their stones over the 6ks. Why, well, you get nearly as refined an edge but retain a slight bit more bite, which I like, and they are faster at removing metal.

Now, as to working on pressure, you can do that with a 1k and imo, you should. Not you personally but collectively and particularly when talking about cheaper/softer stainless. Get everything you can out of that 1k side of the stone. If you are not happy with the edge off of that stone, or any stone that you are starting with, you will not be happy with the subsequent edge either.

Eh, depending on which version of the JIS chart you use what micron is related to what grit gets tricky but 1 micron is typically going to be finer than your 8k stone, closer to 16k. However, it is a good range for restoring your edge rather than going back to the stone. But again, this is going to come down to a number of factors including but not limited to preference.

I see that you are eager to get your feet wet and dive into this head first and also that you are in the EU so you want to do one large shipment, which I understand, having lived there myself. However, one thing I would suggest is to not get your setup and automatically go 1k, 3k, 6k, 1 micron and sub micron. Work your way up to that. Master that 1k, add in the 6k later. After that add in one strop. When you are happy, add in a mid grit stone and finally the second strop if you must. But starting off with too many can lead to a polished but blunt edge and a load of frustration.

I mean, the thing about all of this is that many of the regulars on this board, myself included, are a bit obsessive when it comes to sharpening. Don't read into that thinking that you HAVE to do all of that. A simple two stone combo and some bare leather will get you a fine edge. Hell, often times a 1k and your jeans will too...You just have to decide how far beyond that you want to go. If like many of us, before you know it you will have a wall of stones and more knives than you can count.

As an aside, this is simply my opinion. You will get a lot of good but differing data that you can weigh and decide what will work for you.

Enjoy the chase.

[datster]

My opinion for what it is worth is that you are getting good advice here so far. I, like many, over analyzed sharpening and bought way too much stuff to start years ago and it only muddied the water in the beginning of my sharpening experience. I'm glad I have it all now because I have gotten better and understand what to do with it, but the key as Kit mentioned and I believe, work on the lower grit to get a crazy sharp edge and then learn what you want to do with that edge. Refine it a bit and keep some tooth, fly through tomatoes. Refine it a lot, get it razor polished, shave your arms and legs. Knowing my primary purpose for the edge and then how to get there is what I set my goal as.

[Kit Craft]

Don't get me wrong, I am the jump in headfirst kind of guy too and wouldn't have it any other way. But, it did frustrate me at first.

[Radar53]

Some good advice here. As you start this journey, one frustrating thing you will find is that there in not ONE right answer.

Similar to Kit and you, I'm in New Zealand and I clearly understand the wanting to get it done once for the minimum cost ~ freight & duties can seriously add to the total cost. I had one big advantage over you though, in that when I started to sharpen freehand (about 20 months ago), I had a pretty good idea of where I wanted to get to. I had been sharpening on an EdgePro for 15+ years and so I had a good understanding of the processes involved in sharpening, plus experience of a wide range of different grits and brands of stones. Add to this a ton of great advice from the guys on this forum and I was able to narrow down what I purchased with some confidence.

But as Kit points out, you're probably starting from a point where you don't yet know what your preferences are going to be, so there is a downside to trying a one & done option at this stage.

What I found when I started to freehand was that the higher the grit the less feel and feedback I got from the edge-on-the-stone. So like Kit I would caution about racing to get to higher grits and this was part of or my earlier comment about maybe going to the Cerax 1/3k as a starting point. Once you get to be able to get reasonable edges of the 1k, the 3k will be a much easier transition in terms of feel & feedback that the moving to the 6k.

There are a lot of posts on the forum about people whose edges get worse (blunter) as they increase the grit rating and my thinking is that is because they lack the muscle memory, feel / feedback to maintain a consistent angle. So they round or otherwise compromise the good work that they have done on coarser stones.

I initially spent months with beater knives on a Kohetsu 800 grit stone and once I got reasonable edges consistently here, followed that with the Kohetsu 2k. The result was that my edges deteriorated significantly. Back to just the 800 for a while for more practice and try again. It did come right after a couple of attempts and it was similar when I made the jump to finishing on my Cerax 6k. What I'm saying here is don't rush the learning of the base skills that you need. There's a bewildering amount of advice out there but for me the best guidance cam from Peter Nowlan who has his own sharpening section on this forum - it's here viewforum.php?f=17

This is a great place to start learn the 4P's and decide what works best for you.

Just to address some of the other things that you raise. I would definitely ditch the use of the steel.

Pretty much any of the stones you will buy off CKtG will work effectively on a wide range of steels of different hardness. But, they feel different in use, leave different finishes, cut more or less aggressively and on and on. These traits and others are where you will start to develop YOUR preferences. So take simple steps.

If you want to get into stropping and don't want to play with newsprint or denim then go to one of your local leather suppliers or manufacturers and buy some offcuts - cheap & effective.

At this stage I would steer clear of using compounds.

These are just my thoughts, so take it all with a grain of salt. Your experiences & choices might be completely different.

[ken123]

All pretty good advice so far.

I would add one point. DONT equate Rockwell hardness with abrasion resistance. You can get many steels below Rockwell 60 that will be a lot of work to sharpen. What you are really looking for is abrasion resistance. As steels get harder, they are more prone to chipping. In general it is good to graduate from sharpening steels which are basically files. The smoother steels can do some edge alignment but you are usually better off with a stone of 3k grit or finer for touchups or strop with some coarser compounds - from 4microns to 1 micron (16k). 1k grit is a basic stone for developing a good edge. Although many do it, I find the jump to 6k too large. I have no problem going to much finer edges than 6k using both natural and synthetic stones and compounds, but mastering 1k edges (16 microns) is essential.

---
Ken

[Ut_ron]

I echo the advice here. I bought my first two stones based upon the recommendations here. I wanted splash go versus soakers. I got shapton pro 320 and 2000.

Wanted the lower grit as my my German knives need a lot of work.

This has worked out well for me. As a home cook I find 2000 grit is very good. No problem with anything I have to cut up.

I also picked up the 5000. Only go to this level with my jp knives.

The best advice I got was to look at vidoes in the sharpening forum. Peter’s explanation of varying pressure and don’t move on the next grit until it really sharp. You can shave hair with the 320 (though not comfortable). I was not getting the results that I wanted until I started using these two suggestions.

Good luck with your journey.

[jacko9]

I have a few low grit stones for repair work on my badly abused knives and woodworking blades but, for most of my kitchen work the 1K and 3K Nubatama stones get the most use. I do have a 5K shapton pro and a 8K Kitayama but, mostly use them for touch up.

[Huntdad]

After 35 years of sharpening kens advice is as usual on the mark. I never use steel any more. Sharpen. Strop. Strop it until you need a stone....Repeat.

[Horizonson]

Being new to freehand sharpening on stones, I can whole heartedly agree!

I dove head first, in regard to purchasing a Frankenstein set of stones. Ranging from 150 grit to 8k.

I first started on my Naniwa Chosera 800 (~1k grit JIS), for several sharpenings. Then said stone + the 2k GBofJ on a few knives. Once I had a feel for it, then I practiced resetting bevels with the 325 grit. After that; I thinned the edge of a cheapy knife, starting with the 150 stone.

I still have yet to touch the 5k or 8k, as of now. Probably won't until after the end of the year.

[Peter Nowlan]

I often teach newcomers to sharpen freehand. It’s a fantastic opportunity and I myself have learned much from the experience. I’ll share what I constitute be the key slides in my presentation.

Don’t sweat stone brands, you can fuss about that later. Buy a good brand such as Suehiro, Shapton, Nubatama, Naniwa, an established brand so that when you make a mistake you’re going to know it’s your fault not the stones.

Accept the fact that you’ll make mistakes, encounter problems, have your confidence shaken and wonder at times if you’ll get this sharpening thing. At least you can’t blame the stones. Embrace your mistakes, they’re essential steps and for me, they don’t seem to stop but I’m a better sharpener for making them and learning how to navigate along this challenging yet fantastic journey.

Don’t sweat sharpening angles. I use two angles, one for average knives between 15 & 20 deg and one for dream knives between 10 & 15 deg per side. So when I instruct I get folks to start with one angle, the pinky angle and to build muscle memory on that one angle. There is a lot going on when learning so having one angle to worry about is good. Whether it’s 16 or 18.5 it doesn’t matter, just own that angle. Consistency is about controlling the space between the spine of the knife and the surface of a flat stone. Own that space and your confidence will soar. Then if you want to try adjusting angles your sharpening muscles will respond, they’ll lock on to your chosen angle. I only have two Sharpening angles to worry about.


Don’t worry about toothy and polished edges, worry about having a solid understanding of the fundamentals, about. Burr Formation and Burr Removal and building your sharpening muscles. Get to a point where you can pick up a dull knife, inspect the edge and let it tell you where to start with regard to starting grit and starting pressure. Then get that knife sharper than it’s ever been on the first stone. Do this for as long as you need to and then reap the benefits of being patient, managing your expectations and building confidence.

This took a couple of years for me but you can learn the basics and make a knife very sharp in an hour or less. It’s a living skill and you can keep learning until you stop sharpening. Don’t let your ego get in the way, absorb as much knowledge you can and have fun as you’re moving forward.

Bottom Line.
It’s all about forming and removing a burr and understanding what is actually occurring when you do this. It’s about controlling the space between the spine of the knife and the surface of a flat stone. Shoot for the cleanest edge possible. Get these basics down pat then other things like thinning, toothy edge, should I buy Shapton Pro or Glass, can be things to think about but for now, keep your sharpening horizon close by.

I never did this when I was learning, my priorities were all screwed up, buying stones I didn’t need, fussing about toothy or polished edges, compounds on leather strops. I should have started with a desire to grasp the fundamentals rather than wondering what is the next stone I need that will end up never being used. It was all very exciting at the time but it should of waited.

Peter


Technique first and foremost. All the other stuff can come into play later, it will make more sense.

[nevrknow]

Listen to everything Peter just said. Then go find his videos.

EDIT: read it 3 times. THEN go find the videos.

Trust me on this.

It's easy on google search, then thank me later.

[M1k3-]

Listen to everything Peter just said. Then go find his videos.

EDIT: read it 3 times. THEN go find the videos.

Trust me on this.

It's easy on google search, then thank me later.

Definitely this! ^^^^

[Seattle_Ben]

Listen to everything Peter just said. Then go find his videos.

EDIT: read it 3 times. THEN go find the videos.

Trust me on this.

It's easy on google search, then thank me later.

Definitely this! ^^^^

I was on the verge of tossing my stones for a while until I found Peter's videos. This is easily some of the best advice. His IG is great too.

[tizianca]

Hello Everyone,
sorry if it takes me so lond to respond.
I got your point, less is more, so i get less confused, and actually learn the tecnique, once i master the lower grit, i can work my way up.
I was thinking about a Shapton Pro 2000 (green box),
what do you guys think of that? It's kind of in the middle, i can go a long way without needing anything else.
Tank you Tiziano

[old onion]

Hello Everyone,
sorry if it takes me so lond to respond.
I got your point, less is more, so i get less confused, and actually learn the tecnique, once i master the lower grit, i can work my way up.
I was thinking about a Shapton Pro 2000 (green box),
what do you guys think of that? It's kind of in the middle, i can go a long way without needing anything else.
Tank you Tiziano

Here is a good review of the SP 2000 stone. I myself find it a very good stone and easily the best stone in the pro line-up.
https://www.chefknivestogoforums.com/vi ... 000#p33450

[tizianca]

I went ahead and ordered it.
I ordered from a knife importer in switzerland which sells them for around 10$ more than on CKTG but save around 50$ on shipping.
I should recieve it on wednesday or thursday, as soon as i have time, i'll post a feedback and the results i'm able to get within the first uses, so that you guys can slap me on the fingers and i can correct my mistakes.
I also have a question for you, i don't know if it's possible, but i'd like to polish (maybe mirror-polish) my wasabi, just for the aesthetics... do you have any suggestions?
I read the long post on polishing but that's way out of my league... so i wanted something donkey proof to start with.
thank you

[Seattle_Ben]

Bullet points for polishing as I understand it.


*using wet dry paper.

*start lower than the lowest ground marks. It seems like it's usually lower than you'd think.

*rub blade horizontally with one grit then vertically with the next higher. Don't be shy with using water.

Bonus points for going over 600-800 grit where most people decide it's mirrory.

Securing your blade and getting some sort of backing/stiffened to use the sandpaper with will improve your experience greatly.