Higher Quality Stones

[p_atrick]

So, I recently picked up a King combo stone and have begun learning how to sharpen by hand. I'm sure it won't be long before I want to upgrade my stones. However, I am not sure what a better stone will get me. If I were to switch to diamond or CBN water stones then I would be able to quickly sharpen high alloy steels. But what about Shapton Glass, Naniwa Professional, or any of the other high quality stones? I assume they dish less than King stones, but what else would the stones allow me to do? Thanks in advance.

[metamorpheus]

So, I recently picked up a King combo stone and have begun learning how to sharpen by hand. I'm sure it won't be long before I want to upgrade my stones. However, I am not sure what a better stone will get me. If I were to switch to diamond or CBN water stones then I would be able to quickly sharpen high alloy steels. But what about Shapton Glass, Naniwa Professional, or any of the other high quality stones? I assume they dish less than King stones, but what else would the stones allow me to do? Thanks in advance.

What are you sharpening specifically? I cant speak for the diamond or CBN stones, but can make a few recommendations based on my experience with HAP40. Naniwa Chosera 400 is a good stone for setting a bevel. Kohetsu 800s get the job done. The Kohetsu 2k is magic, easily my favorite synthetic. The feel and visual feedback is top notch on the 2k. It works up a good slurry for smoother sharpening and you can easily see the swarf being formed on the white stone. Its a fast cutter and leaves an agressive edge. Spending some short time on a finisher following it can give you a great balance of a sticky edge that grips veg skin, but drops through with little to no resistance. The stone is highly responsive to varying pressure giving it versatility. It makes deburring much easier and can provide a nice keen edge that push cuts through paper like you might expect from a higher grit stone.

I love the Kohetsu 2k. I have this stone perma soaking and ready to go on a moments notice. I've shifted towards carbon steel and Japanese naturals, but the Kohetsu 2k will never get bumped from my progression.

[Ourorboros]

Part of having other stones is just feel and preference.
Shapton, Chosera, and Kohetsu will all have a harder feel to them but less feedback.
I'd be comfortable using those with alloyed steels up to HAP 40. Diamond and CDN don't feel good to me, but if I had ZDP-189 I'd probably reach for those.
Some people like and stick with King. If you have relatively simple steels, they will do fine.

So what steels do you have/plan to get, what do you like about your stone, and what would you change?

[Jeff B]

The biggest gain you get from the higher end stones you mentioned is speed, and they all will handle higher alloy steels just fine.

[ken123]

ApproachIng this topic fully is easily a 2+ hour conversation. Including higher end Japanese naturals would include stones at $5k+ as well as stones specific for razors, kasumi finishes, swords. woodworking etc. For cbn and polycrystalline diamonds a wide range of strops are available.

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Ken

[p_atrick]

Thank you all for your feedback.

What are you sharpening specifically?

My kitchen cutlery is rather basic. I don't own any high end knives, the steels are all common stainless variants. I have a couple of pocket knives, with HAP 40 and S30V being the most difficult to sharpen. I'm spending most of my times sharpening/mangling a $30 folder in Japanese Acuto. I don't see myself getting into these exotic steels, I just want to maximize whatever I currently own.

...what do you like about your stone, and what would you change?

There are plenty of things that I would change/dislike. The problem is, none of that is related to my stone. I feel like sharpening by hand takes longer, I'm still chasing that "sticky" edge, etc. All of this is probably related to my technique (or lack thereof). The King stones do seem to dish faster than I anticipated, but I gather a nicer stone will hold up better.

ApproachIng this topic fully is easily a 2+ hour conversation.

It seems that the more you dive into a hobby, the deeper the rabbit hole. What are some good resources where I can read/watch reviews of stones?

[Radar53]

P_atrick, you've already found the best resource. Try searching / researching this the Sharpening section as there are many many threads related to different choices of stone. Similarly work your way through the Customer Product Reviews section of this forum.

All the information & more is already available & waiting.

[salemj]

Grant is right: reading answers to other threads is the best way to learn.

Other than that, the other key is knowing what you want/need, which is what others have said, above, too. Unless you are building a large collection, the key is knowing the type of sharpening you are doing and the resultant edge that you want. Here are a few basic questions to ask yourself:
1) Are you often sharpening complete worn, chipped, or failed edges, or do you want to sharpen your knives regularly, at the first sign of losing the apex but while the bevels are still mostly intact and easy to use as guides? This will determine your need and use of lower grits.
2) Do you like to "touch up" your knives on stones, even when they do not need to be sharpened aggressively?
3) Are you often sharpening knives for a particular use?
These last two questions go together and help you determine your choice of mid-grit, high, and stropping stones and materials.

For someone like me, who sharpens primarily kitchen knives, keeps them fairly sharp, and sharpens regularly well before failure or damage, I really focus on the 600 to 4000 range. Within the range, I use lots of Hitachi carbon steels, but not many PM steels, etc. so I do what works well for those and my uses: usually matching (rather than creating a new) bevel around 600-800k, then really working on the bevel-edge relationship between 1.5-2k, and then working on finishing work around 4k or so. I use strops above that sometimes to hone and deburr. Depending on your knives, steel, and the resultant edge you want, you'd vary these: I tend to skip over 1k and do 600-800 to 2k, for example, but many other people prefer more intensive bevel setting at 4-500 grit and then skip to 1k, and then skip again to 5-8k—the goals and ideas are quite similar, but the subtle differences in progression really serve different answers to the above questions. (In comparison to me, these "others" would sharpen more aggressively on each stone and really focus on a complete progression each time, from a more intense setting of the bevel to a more focused and precise polishing on the highest grit stones, all of which would result is a more refined edge than I usually need or want, but would also lead to more regular wear on the knife and on the stones for a more specialized and precise edge.) If you think hard of these questions, it is easy to invest in 2-3 very good stones for a couple years that will serve you very well and balance the "wear" across each stone more evenly over time while serving all of your needs. As you develop, you can always add more stones, of course!

[ken123]

Well the topic really de-evolves to a simpler question - what should I get for the knives I have?

So skip the $5k stones ( for now lol). Initially you want to focusn on 1-2k edges, assuming you arent doing major repairs. Other than Kings there are several excellent choices - Shapton, Chocera, Nubatama, etc. I have my preferences as do most here. I would suggest a stone that is harder and has a higher abrasive density - Shapton and Nubatamas. It would be a significant contrast to your Kings. My bias would be a 1k speckled xxhard stone but as I mentionef there are othet choices.

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Ken

[lsboogy]

Listen to Ken - he has steered many of us over the years. What you need to do is find what works for you. I like soft muddy stones on hard steel and will try for very acute edges at times. German knives at 15 degrees per side (get a matchbook - that's about 15 degrees) and a 2K edge will show good polish and cut very well for a good while. Try a few different types of stones (you could sell the ones you don't like here if you want) and practice. Maybe even give Ken a call - he is a great person to talk to and will get to know and understand your sharpening style and ability and will probably get you into/onto the right stones. I'm well into the rabbit hole, and hope I never get out

[Jeff B]

...what do you like about your stone, and what would you change?

There are plenty of things that I would change/dislike. The problem is, none of that is related to my stone. I feel like sharpening by hand takes longer, I'm still chasing that "sticky" edge, etc. All of this is probably related to my technique (or lack thereof). The King stones do seem to dish faster than I anticipated, but I gather a nicer stone will hold up better.

If you're looking to speed up the process because of knives being pretty dull you need to start with a stone in the 220-500 range. For folders, depending on your preference and use, a low grit stone is all you need.
Stones like the Shaptons will dish MUCH slower than your King.

[ken123]

So skip the $5k stones ( for now lol). Initially you want to focus on 1-2k edges, assuming you arent doing major repairs.

If you are doing major repairs - chips and tips, a lower grit stone is advantageous (150 grit etc). For folders, consider MUCH higher grits than 500 grit - more like 100,000+ grit.

So since you have started - like many people_ with King stones, you should experience the opposite of a soft stone with low abrasive density, hence the suggestion for a hard 1k stone that cuts faster. After mastering the 1k stone, you may wish to go to higher grits or even natural stones which can often offer more edge longevity.

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Ken

[salemj]

If you are doing major repairs - chips and tips, a lower grit stone is advantageous (150 grit etc). For folders, consider MUCH higher grits than 500 grit - more like 100,000+ grit.


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Ken

This seems like a typo to me? I agree with Jeff that "most" people – including original factory edges and custom makers costing 500 or more – sharpen folders to grits under 5000, and often closer to 1000 or lower. I don't collect these, but my dad does, and even his most exclusive blades – and he has blades from several custom makers - never seem to have edges above 2000k from what I can feel, at least in terms of test cuts on paper or attempts on hair.

[p_atrick]

If you are doing major repairs - chips and tips, a lower grit stone is advantageous (150 grit etc). For folders, consider MUCH higher grits than 500 grit - more like 100,000+ grit.


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Ken

This seems like a typo to me? I agree with Jeff that "most" people – including original factory edges and custom makers costing 500 or more – sharpen folders to grits under 5000, and often closer to 1000 or lower. I don't collect these, but my dad does, and even his most exclusive blades – and he has blades from several custom makers - never seem to have edges above 2000k from what I can feel, at least in terms of test cuts on paper or attempts on hair.

There are a bunch of pocket knife guys who chase the keenest edge possible. Michael Christy is one such guy. He is an amazing sharpener. There is plenty of debate as to the usefulness of such an edge, and many people believe that a lower grit edge will serve the greatest number of people the best in an EDC role. But I gather that people put on these keen edges more as a testament to their skill more than its utility.

[salemj]

If you are doing major repairs - chips and tips, a lower grit stone is advantageous (150 grit etc). For folders, consider MUCH higher grits than 500 grit - more like 100,000+ grit.


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Ken

This seems like a typo to me? I agree with Jeff that "most" people – including original factory edges and custom makers costing 500 or more – sharpen folders to grits under 5000, and often closer to 1000 or lower. I don't collect these, but my dad does, and even his most exclusive blades – and he has blades from several custom makers - never seem to have edges above 2000k from what I can feel, at least in terms of test cuts on paper or attempts on hair.

There are a bunch of pocket knife guys who chase the keenest edge possible. Michael Christy is one such guy. He is an amazing sharpener. There is plenty of debate as to the usefulness of such an edge, and many people believe that a lower grit edge will serve the greatest number of people the best in an EDC role. But I gather that people put on these keen edges more as a testament to their skill more than its utility.

Yes, I’m aware and it is a good reminder. Still, even if 9999 such people exist, that is still .009 percent of enthusiasts if only a million folders are sold a year and I’m sure the sales numbers are much higher than that. So in terms of the OP, it seemed a little off point.

[ken123]

Nope - not a typo. I do have customers who go to 5.3 million grit, so I was being modest lol.

Again a 1k edge is acceptable for most needs. For me Im often at 100k to 640k. I can appreciate the difference. There is no universal answer to this question.

Ken

[p_atrick]

I would suggest a stone that is harder and has a higher abrasive density - Shapton and Nubatamas. It would be a significant contrast to your Kings.

In terms of the abrasive itself in higher quality stones, are they pretty much the same across the different brands? Does it really make a difference if the abrasives are different?

[Jeff B]

...For folders, consider MUCH higher grits than 500 grit - more like 100,000+ grit...

He's here asking about a better stone than his King combo, seriously doubt that he is into 100,000+ grits at this point.

[ken123]

Jeff - reread my posts Im suggesting a better1k.
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Ken

[ken123]

I would suggest a stone that is harder and has a higher abrasive density - Shapton and Nubatamas. It would be a significant contrast to your Kings.

In terms of the abrasive itself in higher quality stones, are they pretty much the same across the different brands? Does it really make a difference if the abrasives are different?

There is a great deal of difference in the abrasives used, binding formulations, density, consistent particle size, etc, etc. I have 9 different Nubatama 1k stones for instance - all different. Plus other brands. Each stone is optimized for different tasks. Again a longer discussion.

In some instances a stone may be softer or have different abrasives to compliment a specific or general task.

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Ken